DEADLINE 09/23/2009: Overseas Account > 10K in 2008 Must be declared

[realizeit]

Anyone who stayed more than 183 days in 2008 here in US, must declare all their accounts in home country or any other country, if at any time, the cumulative value in those accounts exceeded $10,000. IRS extended the declaration deadline to September 23, 2009.

I came to know about this today only and I am planning to submit this as soon as possible. Please follow the following links to educate yourself.


Indians in US have to disclose offshore accounts- Tax News-Tax Savers-Personal Finance-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Personal-Finance/Indians-to-disclose-offshore-ACs/articleshow/4221013.cms)


Official IRS Pages describing these:

Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210247,00.html?portlet=6)

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

FAQs Regarding Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html)

[desi3933]

.
One has to file this if cumulative sum of all deposits (outside USA) was at least $10,000 at any time in the calendar year 2008.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf

.

[desi485]

.
One has to file this if cumulative sum of all deposits (outside USA) was at least $10,000 at any time in the calendar year 2008.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf

.

I already filed last month Form known as FBAR and send it to dept of treasury at Detroit. Also, it is suggested that one should keep the proof of filling (I stored the USPS receipt and tracking information, copy of FBAR) in case some one asks for it later. Also, earlier deadline was June 30th, 2009 to file this form. It seems that it is extended from above posts.

This is very important and there is criminal penalty for failing to do so. I suggest everyone to do this ASAP.

[ca_immigrant]

DEADLINE 09/23/2019: Overseas Immigrants > 59 will be given GC. USCIS is working on it hard (ly)

Till then please declare all your bank accounts as you are not paying enough taxes.

and no, I am not making fun of the folks who posted this , I am just frustrated that they have to find out all means to extract money from us, but do not want to give us GCs. (I know IRS and USCIS are different bodies).

[shukla77]

Gurus,
If I deposit ~ 1000$ ( 49,000 Rs) everymonth in the NRO account at ICICI or HDFC. Total for the year would be 12K. Do I have to submit this form. From definition it seems that " If aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $ 10K at any time" means that total sum of accounts 1,2,3 should not exceed 10K at anytime inorder for someone to not file this.

Any input?

Thanks

[sunny1000]

Gurus,
If I deposit ~ 1000$ ( 49,000 Rs) everymonth in the NRO account at ICICI or HDFC. Total for the year would be 12K. Do I have to submit this form. From definition it seems that " If aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $ 10K at any time" means that total sum of accounts 1,2,3 should not exceed 10K at anytime inorder for someone to not file this.

Any input?

Thanks

Yes. If your aggregate sum exceeds $10000 in a calendar year, you need to file FBAR. This is not just for non-immigrants but for everybody including U.S citizens and GC holders.

[sundarpn]

So just fill this form and mail it? Is this is just a declration for their "informational" purposes? (after bernie madoff scandal?)

or Is this, in anyway going to increase our taxes?

[desi3933]

Gurus,
If I deposit ~ 1000$ ( 49,000 Rs) every month in the NRO account at ICICI or HDFC. Total for the year would be 12K. Do I have to submit this form. From definition it seems that " If aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $ 10K at any time" means that total sum of accounts 1,2,3 should not exceed 10K at anytime in order for someone to not file this.

Any input?

Thanks

Yes.

In addition, you have to report any income (e.g. interest, dividend) from this account(s) on your 1040 tax filing.


_________________
Not a legal advice

[desi485]

Gurus,
If I deposit ~ 1000$ ( 49,000 Rs) everymonth in the NRO account at ICICI or HDFC. Total for the year would be 12K. Do I have to submit this form. From definition it seems that " If aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $ 10K at any time" means that total sum of accounts 1,2,3 should not exceed 10K at anytime inorder for someone to not file this.

Any input?

Thanks

The interest income should be reported on 1040, and if you haven't for past years then you can file the amended return.

[gchopes]

Will the IRS really track if we have an overseas account in India with balance over 10k if we don't report it to them? I currently do not have over 10k but planning to add more to that account this year.

[texanguy]

Guys, i have a question. Lets say i have to buy a house in India and need 25K USD as a for the down payment. Then is it better to just transfer the whole money when its needed rather than letting it accumulate in the NRE account ? your response will be appreciated. Thanks

[feedfront]

I always show the dividend earned in my offshore a/c in 1040 form. Do I have to still declare my a/c to IRS?

One time, I had more than 10K because I wanted to buy home :). Not anymore :( , house prices were so high I could not buy anthing in 10K and used up my savings here and there. :confused:

[mdumar]

Gurus,
If I deposit ~ 1000$ ( 49,000 Rs) everymonth in the NRO account at ICICI or HDFC. Total for the year would be 12K. Do I have to submit this form. From definition it seems that " If aggregate value of these accounts exceeds $ 10K at any time" means that total sum of accounts 1,2,3 should not exceed 10K at anytime inorder for someone to not file this.

Any input?

Thanks

This is what I think. You have to report only if you had a balance of more than $10,000 during anytime of year 2008. If you have more than 1 account then the aggregate of all the available balance should have been more than $10,000 at any point of the time in 2008.

[rams4680]

I had a question, if I have held NRE account in HDFC bank in India and transferred money above $10,000 to that account to pay for home loan in India would that account need to be disclosed . Maximum balance was $30,000 but only for a week in 2008.

[shukla77]

Here is the situation. I send money every month let us say 1000$ to NRO account. Now in 10 days when the money is withdrawn balance goes to 200$. So really at NO POINT OF TIME the balance reached 10K. but If I add the total amount deposited then it is more than 10K. So is it 10K at any point in time or 10K total ( from Jan to Dec.) Is it just me or???

This is what I think. You have to report only if you had a balance of more than $10,000 during anytime of year 2008. If you have more than 1 account then the aggregate of all the available balance should have been more than $10,000 at any point of the time in 2008.

[looneytunezez]

my a/c had total deposits of $10,000 exactly,but the highest value on that a/c was less than $2,000 at any given time. Remaining amounts were used for various expenses.
Do i need to file an FBAR?

[roseball]

I transferred around $15k to my ICICI NRE account to make part pre-payments on my home loan. The money was immediately used to make the loan payments...My bank account always had a balance of Rs. 50,000 or lower other than for a few days when the amount was transfered from US and paid towards my home loan....I am assuming I still need to file this, right? Any ideas?

[psaxena]

I just got my Indian bank account and thats what I used to transfer the money to..(resident savings account) I never got these account converted to NRE .

Is that a problem or should I keep them that way only?

[simple1]

Is this some new form ? (effective 2008) or is it an old one

What happens to the *-2007 reporting ? should I specify in the same form ?


Anyone who stayed more than 183 days in 2008 here in US, must declare all their accounts in home country or any other country, if at any time, the cumulative value in those accounts exceeded $10,000. IRS extended the declaration deadline to September 23, 2009.

I came to know about this today only and I am planning to submit this as soon as possible. Please follow the following links to educate yourself.


Indians in US have to disclose offshore accounts- Tax News-Tax Savers-Personal Finance-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Personal-Finance/Indians-to-disclose-offshore-ACs/articleshow/4221013.cms)


Official IRS Pages describing these:

Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210247,00.html?portlet=6)

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

FAQs Regarding Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html)

[bhobama]

You have to file "delinquent" FBAR for prior years 2007, 2006 etc. and explain to IRS why you did not file (ex. not aware of the requirement). If needed amend your tax returns for those years to include undeclared overseas income (which the FBAR will reveal, and is the main reason for FBAR filing itself). This may seem like overkill, but when it comes to Citizenship time, you want to have all your tax issues straightened out.

FYI, the deadline is not really extended to Sept 23. Its just that you have until Sept 23 to file the "delinquent" FBAR with an explanation of why it is late. The FBAR is still delinquent if not filed by June 30. See this link where it says delinquent FBAR.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html

Also from FAQ on irs.gov

Q. What is the statute of limitations for assessing civil penalties for violations of the FBAR requirements?

A. Civil penalties can be assessed anytime up to six years after the date of the violation.


I have filed FBAR since 1999, only now there is a lot of press about it and IRS is focusing on it. In 1999, 150,000 people filed FBAR. In 2006, 400,000 people filed FBAR. So compliance had increased due to IRS threats. I can bet you that a LOT more than 150,000 people had overseas income in 1999 :) The law is not new, just being enforced now since the US Treasury is broke !



Is this some new form ? (effective 2008) or is it an old one

What happens to the *-2007 reporting ? should I specify in the same form ?

[simple1]

Is overseas bank interest considered as taxable income ? Please advice.

You have to file "delinquent" FBAR for prior years 2007, 2006 etc. and explain to IRS why you did not file (ex. not aware of the requirement). If needed amend your tax returns for those years to include undeclared income. This may seem like overkill, but when it comes to Citizenship time, you want to have all your tax issues straightened out.

I have filed FBAR since 1999, only now there is a lot of press about it and IRS is focusing on it. In 1999, 150,000 people filed FBAR. In 2006, 400,000 people filed FBAR. So compliance had increased due to IRS threats. I can bet you that a LOT more than 150,000 people had overseas income in 1999 :) The law is not new, just being enforced now since the US Treasury is broke !

[tamil12]

I just googled and found this info...I am not sure abt this..





Nonresidents Needn’t File Foreign Bank Account Forms (For Now)

by phil on 2009/06/09

It brings to mind Emily Litella. “Never mind,” says the IRS.

The IRS just announced that — despite the changes to the FBAR instructions made effective January 1, 2009 — nonresidents do not have to file Form TD F 90-22.1. Only citizens, U.S. residents, and domestic entities need to do so.

Announcement 2009-51

Temporary Suspension of FBAR filing Requirements for Persons who are not Citizens, Residents, or Domestic Entities

June 5, 2009

The Internal Revenue Service is temporarily suspending the reporting requirement with respect to foreign bank accounts (Form TD F 90.22-1 (Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts) due on June 30, 2009, for those persons who are not citizens, residents, or domestic entities. The revised Form TD F 90.22-1 (October 2008) was issued with a change in the instructions to the definition of “United States person.” The IRS has received a number of questions and comments from the public concerning the new filing requirement that may require additional guidance.

To reduce the burden on the public with respect to FBARs due on June 30, 2009, all persons may rely on the definition of “United States person” found in the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR (the July 2000 version) to determine whether they have an obligation to file an FBAR. The definition of “United States person” from the prior version is as follows:

United States Person The term “United States person” means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.

The definition of the term “United States person” from the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR form may be relied upon for purposes of determining who must file an FBAR. All other requirements of the current version of the FBAR form and instructions (revision October 2008) are still in effect. The current version of the form must be used when filing an FBAR.

The substitution of the definition of “United States person” from the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR applies only with respect to FBARs due on June 30, 2009. Additional guidance will be issued with respect to FBARs due in subsequent years.

The Service invites interested persons to submit comments regarding the revised FBAR form and instructions (revision October 2008). Please submit comments by August 31, 2009 to: Internal Revenue Service, CC:PA:LPD:PR (Announcement 2009-51), room 5203, P.O. Box 7604, Ben Franklin Station, Washington, DC 20044. Submissions also may be hand delivered Monday through Friday between the hours of 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. to: CC:PA:LPD:PR (Announcement 2009-51), Courier’s Desk, Internal Revenue Service, 1111 Constitution Avenue N.W., Washington, DC. Alternatively, taxpayers may submit electronic comments directly to the IRS e-mail address: notice.comments@irscounsel.treas.gov (attention: Announcement 2009-51).

The principal author of this announcement is Adrienne Mikolashek of the Office of Associate Chief Counsel (Procedure and Administration). For further information regarding this announcement contact Adrienne Mikolashek at 202-622-4940 not a toll-free call).

What does this mean to you?

* If you are a nonresident of the United States and you were concerned about getting caught up in this new requirement, you have a temporary reprieve. You do not need to file Form TD F 90-22.1 at this time.
* Don’t go to sleep. The danger is not gone. It will be back for calendar year 2009 and future years. We just don’t know what the exact requirements will be.
* Look at the way you have configured your U.S. investments and U.S. business operations. Make changes now. This is an unexpected window of opportunity to restructure your affairs. Seize it.

Tagged as: FBAR, foreign bank accounts, TD F 90-22.1

[bhobama]

"United States person" for tax purposes is anyone who has been in the US for > 183 days in the last year. If you are on H1B / L1 / EAD for >183 days you are a US person. In other words you filed 1040 and not 1040 NR

http://www.r2iclubforums.com/forums/f89/filing-treasury-form-tdf90-22-1-value-bank-accounts-over-10-000-outside-usa-1498/index2.html

I just googled and found this info...I am not sure abt this..





Nonresidents Needn’t File Foreign Bank Account Forms (For Now)

by phil on 2009/06/09

It brings to mind Emily Litella. “Never mind,” says the IRS.

The IRS just announced that — despite the changes to the FBAR instructions made effective January 1, 2009 — nonresidents do not have to file Form TD F 90-22.1. Only citizens, U.S. residents, and domestic entities need to do so.

Announcement 2009-51

Temporary Suspension of FBAR filing Requirements for Persons who are not Citizens, Residents, or Domestic Entities

June 5, 2009

The Internal Revenue Service is temporarily suspending the reporting requirement with respect to foreign bank accounts (Form TD F 90.22-1 (Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts) due on June 30, 2009, for those persons who are not citizens, residents, or domestic entities. The revised Form TD F 90.22-1 (October 2008) was issued with a change in the instructions to the definition of “United States person.” The IRS has received a number of questions and comments from the public concerning the new filing requirement that may require additional guidance.

To reduce the burden on the public with respect to FBARs due on June 30, 2009, all persons may rely on the definition of “United States person” found in the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR (the July 2000 version) to determine whether they have an obligation to file an FBAR. The definition of “United States person” from the prior version is as follows:

United States Person The term “United States person” means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.

The definition of the term “United States person” from the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR form may be relied upon for purposes of determining who must file an FBAR. All other requirements of the current version of the FBAR form and instructions (revision October 2008) are still in effect. The current version of the form must be used when filing an FBAR.

The substitution of the definition of “United States person” from the instructions for the prior version of the FBAR applies only with respect to FBARs due on June 30, 2009. Additional guidance will be issued with respect to FBARs due in subsequent years.

The Service invites interested persons to submit comments regarding the revised FBAR form and instructions (revision October 2008). Please submit comments by August 31, 2009 to: Internal Revenue Service, CC:PA:LPD:PR (Announcement 2009-51), room 5203, P.O. Box 7604, Ben Franklin Station, Washington, DC 20044. Submissions also may be hand delivered Monday through Friday between the hours of 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. to: CC:PA:LPD:PR (Announcement 2009-51), Courier’s Desk, Internal Revenue Service, 1111 Constitution Avenue N.W., Washington, DC. Alternatively, taxpayers may submit electronic comments directly to the IRS e-mail address: notice.comments@irscounsel.treas.gov (attention: Announcement 2009-51).

The principal author of this announcement is Adrienne Mikolashek of the Office of Associate Chief Counsel (Procedure and Administration). For further information regarding this announcement contact Adrienne Mikolashek at 202-622-4940 not a toll-free call).

What does this mean to you?

* If you are a nonresident of the United States and you were concerned about getting caught up in this new requirement, you have a temporary reprieve. You do not need to file Form TD F 90-22.1 at this time.
* Don’t go to sleep. The danger is not gone. It will be back for calendar year 2009 and future years. We just don’t know what the exact requirements will be.
* Look at the way you have configured your U.S. investments and U.S. business operations. Make changes now. This is an unexpected window of opportunity to restructure your affairs. Seize it.

Tagged as: FBAR, foreign bank accounts, TD F 90-22.1

[langagadu]

Thanks god, this is one thing I need not worry in my life. :) I am from lower middle class. I don't have anything other than 1 lakh rupees in India. I am glad I am not troubled by US govt from this front. I hope they don't ask me why I don't have.:confused::confused:

[bhobama]

Of course that does not exempt you from reporting income or bank interest on that money in your 1040 if you are a "US person".

Remember, all US persons must report income from all sources worldwide .

Unfortunately no one can hide from IRS in Timbuktu ! Also all international wire transfers are monitored on the SWIFT network by the CIA and forwarded to IRS if they think it is suspicious.

http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_secret_us_program.pdf

Thanks god, this is one thing I need not worry in my life. :) I am from lower middle class. I don't have anything other than 1 lakh rupees in India. I am glad I am not troubled by US govt from this front. I hope they don't ask me why I don't have.:confused::confused:

[tamil12]

Please help me in this ..

while filling the form do we need to put the maximum amount in RS ? or in dollars?

[langagadu]

Yes, I do report the intrest earned from that around $16.00 a year.


Of course that does not exempt you from reporting income or bank interest on that money in your 1040 if you are a "US person".

Remember, all US persons must report income from all sources worldwide .

Unfortunately no one can hide from IRS in Timbuktu ! Also all international wire transfers are monitored on the SWIFT network by the CIA and forwarded to IRS if they think it is suspicious.

http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_secret_us_program.pdf

[snathan]

Do we need to declare only the NRE account or even domestic accounts needs to be declared.

[chantu]

I don't have any account on my name in India. But I did send more than $10,000 to my parent's account. Do I have to file with IRS?

[akred]

Will the IRS really track if we have an overseas account in India with balance over 10k if we don't report it to them? I currently do not have over 10k but planning to add more to that account this year.

They can track it if the account is in a US bank (for e.g. Citigroup). In fact US banks will auto-report your information to IRS. It can not be tracked if the account is in an Indian bank (for e.g SBI).

[akred]

Do we need to declare only the NRE account or even domestic accounts needs to be declared.

Any and all offshore accounts need to be declared.

[desi3933]

Is overseas bank interest considered as taxable income ? Please advice.

Yes. It does not matter what kind of account you have.



.

[sanjay]

Anyone who stayed more than 183 days in 2008 here in US, must declare all their accounts in home country or any other country, if at any time, the cumulative value in those accounts exceeded $10,000. IRS extended the declaration deadline to September 23, 2009.

I came to know about this today only and I am planning to submit this as soon as possible. Please follow the following links to educate yourself.


Indians in US have to disclose offshore accounts- Tax News-Tax Savers-Personal Finance-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Personal-Finance/Indians-to-disclose-offshore-ACs/articleshow/4221013.cms)


Official IRS Pages describing these:

Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210247,00.html?portlet=6)

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

FAQs Regarding Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html)


Sorry for my ignorance. But, do person on H1 also had to declare his assets and income in his home country? This looks absurd. While on one side US government does not think us either citizens or permanent residents, we are here on a temporary visa program. Then why should we declare our assets in home country.

Or may be this rule is for only those who are on GC or already citizens here. Then it makes some sense.

Can some one who know about this rule put some light here.

Thanks.

[atul555]

Is this the same thing with which Obama Admin is harassing the UBS bank with ? So on the name of catching tax cheats they are harrassing the honest money earners.I heard that Swiss are pissed with Americans and closing their accounts in Swiss banks, basically kicking them out. Also I heard that Obama was going to levy the amount at par with income tax on money going out of the country if a person goes out for good ie. gives up US citizenship, or gets his green card DENIED..
So there's you go with hope and change.. First off they won't allow you to stay on and then to add insult to injury they'll take your money which you are taking back home... at least they'll inform you instantly by email and text..

[desi3933]

Sorry for my ignorance. But, do person on H1 also had to declare his assets and income in his home country? This looks absurd. While on one side US government does not think us either citizens or permanent residents, we are here on a temporary visa program. Then why should we declare our assets in home country.

For the purpose of tax filing, you are "US Person". One has file taxes on worldwide income, if you are working any visa and wer present in US for > 183 calendar days for the tax filing year. However, you can claim credit for foreign taxes paid (Form 1116).

For tax filing, there is not much difference whether one has green card or not.

I would recommend, please read this document very carefully.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf

Foreign-Source Income (Page 20)
Foreign Tax Credit (Page 40)
Foreign Accounts (Page 107)


___________________
Not a legal advice.
I am NOT a CPA

[vivid_bharti]

This thing is serious, we have to calculate all the interest that was paid in that account, now since I did not withdraw the money, I'm not sure how to calculate the interest paid in dollars, how to show that in 1040 amendment etc. This is really bullsh*t..

[desi3933]

This thing is serious, we have to calculate all the interest that was paid in that account, now since I did not withdraw the money, I'm not sure how to calculate the interest paid in dollars, how to show that in 1040 amendment etc. This is really bullsh*t..

>> I'm not sure how to calculate the interest paid in dollars

Here are the steps -
1. Get the total interest (or dividend) received for the month
2. Get dollar to rupee conversion on the last business day of the month
3. Repeat 1 and 2 for every month
4. Repeat 1, 2, and 3 for every financial institution

Calculation Example -

For the month of June 2008
interest received = Rs 12,000
Currency Conversion
2008-06-30 June 30, Monday 0.0232937 USD
12000 * 0.0232937 = $ 279.52 for the month of June 2008
.

[number30]

Sorry for my ignorance. But, do person on H1 also had to declare his assets and income in his home country? This looks absurd. While on one side US government does not think us either citizens or permanent residents, we are here on a temporary visa program. Then why should we declare our assets in home country.

Or may be this rule is for only those who are on GC or already citizens here. Then it makes some sense.

Can some one who know about this rule put some light here.

Thanks.

Even in India it is same way. If you any foreigner stays in India for more the 183 days he needs pay resident tax. Definition of the IRS Resident is different from USCIS resident (permanent resident). Most of the Countries tax the Worldwide Income.
In Dubai you do not pay income taxes. So your Indian Income will also get tax exempted.

[hebron]

I don't have any account on my name in India. But I did send more than $10,000 to my parent's account. Do I have to file with IRS?



Can somebody answer this? If I send money to my parents, do we have to file this IRS?
Also do we have to declare an LIC policy?

[desi485]

Can somebody answer this? If I send money to my parents, do we have to file this IRS?
Also do we have to declare an LIC policy?

if the surrender value of your LIC policy is more than 10K USD, yes you need to declare that. This is clearly stated in FAQ or just read the FBAR instructions.

[aps]

The IRS web site says (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf) says all 'united states person' has to file this. I checked the definition of united states person, the Wikipedia says like this.

"
The term United States person or U.S. person is used in the context of data collection and intelligence by the United States, particularly with respect to the provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. If information from, about, or to a U.S. person who is not a named terrorist is captured in the course of U.S. foreign intelligence activities, there are strict rules about preserving the anonymity of such a person in any subsequent intelligence report. Only if the U.S. person information is relevant to the report, is it included.

According to the National Security Agency web site, Federal law and executive order define a United States person as any of the following:

* a citizen of the United States
* an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence
* an unincorporated association with a substantial number of members who are citizens of the U.S. or are aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence
* a corporation that is incorporated in the U.S.
"
(United States person - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_person))

I am not permanent residence yet. I am in H1B. Do all H1b has to file this?

[desi485]

The IRS web site says (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf) says all 'united states person' has to file this. I checked the definition of united states person, the Wikipedia says like this.

"
The term United States person or U.S. person is used in the context of data collection and intelligence by the United States, particularly with respect to the provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. If information from, about, or to a U.S. person who is not a named terrorist is captured in the course of U.S. foreign intelligence activities, there are strict rules about preserving the anonymity of such a person in any subsequent intelligence report. Only if the U.S. person information is relevant to the report, is it included.

According to the National Security Agency web site, Federal law and executive order define a United States person as any of the following:

* a citizen of the United States
* an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence
* an unincorporated association with a substantial number of members who are citizens of the U.S. or are aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence
* a corporation that is incorporated in the U.S.
"
(United States person - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_person))

I am not permanent residence yet. I am in H1B. Do all H1b has to file this?

Have you come across 'resident alien' word? did you file the tax return as a resident or non-resident?

I would suggest you to check with a good CPA.

[aps]

Have you come across 'resident alien' word? did you file the tax return as a resident or non-resident?

I would suggest you to check with a good CPA.

I guess if you stay here more than 180 days, then you are considered as resident alien for tax filing. But, this one, does not say anything about resident, non-resident alien. But simply uses the term US Person, that is why i am bit confused.

[tamil12]

I just checked my CPA who filed my taxes , who confirmed me to file the form..if the amount crosses 10000$ It looks like it's mandatory....She defined if you have SSN and used 1040 to file taxes...You must have to declare that.

[GCOptimist]

Anyone who stayed more than 183 days in 2008 here in US, must declare all their accounts in home country or any other country, if at any time, the cumulative value in those accounts exceeded $10,000. IRS extended the declaration deadline to September 23, 2009.

I came to know about this today only and I am planning to submit this as soon as possible. Please follow the following links to educate yourself.


Indians in US have to disclose offshore accounts- Tax News-Tax Savers-Personal Finance-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Personal-Finance/Indians-to-disclose-offshore-ACs/articleshow/4221013.cms)


Official IRS Pages describing these:

Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210247,00.html?portlet=6)

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

FAQs Regarding Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html)
Thank you for reminding RealizeIt. I almost forgot about this and good to see that the dead line is extended.

[ngeorgia1977]

FAQs Regarding Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) - United States Person (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=210252,00.html)

I dont think we are doing business.


Q. What is a United States person?

A "United States person" includes a citizen or resident of the United States, or a person in and doing business in the United States. The term "person" includes individuals and all forms of business entities, trusts, and estates.
Q. Who is considered to be doing business in the United States for FBAR reporting purposes?

A. Whether a person is considered, for FBAR purposes, to be in, and doing business in the United States is determined based on an analysis of the facts and circumstances of each case. Generally, a person is not considered to be in, and doing business in the United States unless that person is conducting business within the United States on a regular and continuous basis. Persons who are merely visiting the United States or who sporadically conduct business in the United States, are not in, and doing business in, the United States for FBAR reporting purposes. For example, a person who is not a citizen or resident of the United States and who is engaged in a business but who only occasionally visits the United States to meet customers or business associates would not be in, and doing business in the United States for FBAR reporting purposes.

[desi485]

I just checked my CPA who filed my taxes , who confirmed me to file the form..if the amount crosses 10000$ It looks like it's mandatory....She defined if you have SSN and used 1040 to file taxes...You must have to declare that.

I got same answer after my CPA actually called IRS office.

[simple1]

---- Confirmed FBAR and FBA-interest doc is required for H1B ----

I got the same confirmation from HRBLOCK guy. However they did not tell me this Info for the past 5 years I am filing with them.

Now, He is suggesting to amend tax returns (to include NRE/NRO bank interest info. and pay taxes-in-usa for NRE that was not taxed in india) for the past 5 years and file FBAR for the past 5 years.

---- xxxx ----

Query : from Which Financial year FBAR is effective for H1B and/or any resident-alien ?
================================================== =====
Ok,, I have a question. When Did FBAR become mandatory for workpermit holders like H1B. Is it a mandatory for a long time immemorial or is it a recent requirement (like 2008 onwards) for workpermit holders like H1B.

This is important question as we need to know as H1B’s if we need to send delinquent reports for say 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 etc.

Query : resident alien (non gc/usc) and NRE account interest.
=======================================
NRO account's interest is tax deducted at source in india. However, NRE account interest is not.

Should I pay taxes (for NRE accounts interest) in india and ask for tax credit in US. or pay taxes in US and show credit in india ?

This could be big, as ammending tax returns with addtional income will attract interest-payment from IRS.

Thanks for attention.

Gurus, please advice. Kindly note this question is for resident alien (non gc/usc) scenario

[desi3933]

Gurus, please advice. Kindly note this question is for resident alien (non gc/usc) scenario


For tax filing, there is not much difference whether one has green card or not.

I would recommend, please read this document very carefully.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf

Foreign-Source Income (Page 20)
Foreign Tax Credit (Page 40)
Foreign Accounts (Page 107)

.

[hebron]

if the surrender value of your LIC policy is more than 10K USD, yes you need to declare that. This is clearly stated in FAQ or just read the FBAR instructions.

Thank you desi485 ! I guess I should not be concerned then, because the cash surrender value for LIC policies are usually 30 - 35% of the premium paid excluding the first years premium (which in my case wouldn't amount to $10000). Just to make sure that I got this right, the term CASH SURRENDER VALUE used here is for premature termination of a life insurance policy, correct?

Also what about gifts made to the parents? I am assuming that as long as the gifts go from a US account to another person's account overseas, no FBAR is necessary.

[yestogc]

If someone does not have a NRE or NRO account, just a simple savings and Checkings account with FD (Called CD's here) ---------- All of this is in GOVT owned Banks, Like SBI, Punjab national bank, Vijaya Bank etc.

Before coming to US the sum of money in all these accounts and FD's (Fixed Deposits) was less than $10K. {Principle + interest}

Now after we came here we funded these accounts with money sent from US (TAX PAID MONEY WAS SENT FROM US BANK ACCOUNTS).
Also the interest which we get on these Accounts annually do not exceed $10K............... I believe that they should not look into the Principle amount (since this was already a tax paid money)

Apart from this no other source of income is there in India.

Do we still need to file this form ??

[desi3933]

Also what about gifts made to the parents? I am assuming that as long as the gifts go from a US account to another person's account overseas, no FBAR is necessary.

Frequently Asked Questions on Gift Taxes (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html)


.

[desi3933]

....

Now after we came here we funded these accounts with money sent from US (TAX PAID MONEY WAS SENT FROM US BANK ACCOUNTS).
Also the interest which we get on these Accounts annually do not exceed $10K............... I believe that they should not look into the Principle amount (since this was already a tax paid money)

Apart from this no other source of income is there in India.

Do we still need to file this form ??

Yes.

Kind of account does not matter.

How account got funded, does not matter.

What matters is the cumulative account value (of ALL the accounts outside USA) at any time > $10,000 or not.

.

[desi485]

If someone does not have a NRE or NRO account, just a simple savings and Checkings account with FD (Called CD's here) ---------- All of this is in GOVT owned Banks, Like SBI, Punjab national bank, Vijaya Bank etc.

Before coming to US the sum of money in all these accounts and FD's (Fixed Deposits) was less than $10K. {Principle + interest}

Now after we came here we funded these accounts with money sent from US (TAX PAID MONEY WAS SENT FROM US BANK ACCOUNTS).
Also the interest which we get on these Accounts annually do not exceed $10K............... I believe that they should not look into the Principle amount (since this was already a tax paid money)
Apart from this no other source of income is there in India.

Do we still need to file this form ??

Ha ha ha.... I initially thought the same logic, unfortunately IRS doesn't think that way. Besides if you have more than 10K in a foreign bank, you MUST file fbar. no matter from where money came.

[desi485]

---- Confirmed FBAR and FBA-interest doc is required for H1B ----

I got the same confirmation from HRBLOCK guy. However they did not tell me this Info for the past 5 years I am filing with them.

Now, He is suggesting to amend tax returns (to include NRE/NRO bank interest info. and pay taxes-in-usa for NRE that was not taxed in india) for the past 5 years and file FBAR for the past 5 years.

---- xxxx ----

Query : from Which Financial year FBAR is effective for H1B and/or any resident-alien ?
================================================== =====
Ok,, I have a question. When Did FBAR become mandatory for workpermit holders like H1B. Is it a mandatory for a long time immemorial or is it a recent requirement (like 2008 onwards) for workpermit holders like H1B.

This is important question as we need to know as H1B’s if we need to send delinquent reports for say 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 etc.

Query : resident alien (non gc/usc) and NRE account interest.
=======================================
NRO account's interest is tax deducted at source in india. However, NRE account interest is not.

Should I pay taxes (for NRE accounts interest) in india and ask for tax credit in US. or pay taxes in US and show credit in india ?

This could be big, as ammending tax returns with addtional income will attract interest-payment from IRS.

Thanks for attention.

Gurus, please advice. Kindly note this question is for resident alien (non gc/usc) scenario

I have one account in india where tax is deducted from source, so I showed this account in FBAR but did not filed it in amended returns. India as double taxation treaty with US so we do not have to pay tax twice. However I have one NRE account in which the bank does not deduct indian income tax. This is the account caused most trouble for me. All these years I was thinking it is a tax free interest. Apparantly it is not. You must pay tax in atleast one country. So I amended my returns and paid the tax.

[desi3933]

I have one account in india where tax is deducted from source, so I showed this account in FBAR but did not filed it in amended returns. India as double taxation treaty with US so we do not have to pay tax twice.

You are wrong here. You do have show NRO account (or Share Account or Mutual Fund Account) in US 1040 tax return, but you get credit for foreign tax paid in India.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf

Foreign-Source Income (Page 20)
Foreign Tax Credit (Page 40)


However I have one NRE account in which the bank does not deduct indian income tax. This is the account caused most trouble for me. All these years I was thinking it is a tax free interest. Apparantly it is not. You must pay tax in atleast one country. So I amended my returns and paid the tax.

Since there was no tax paid for NRE account interest, the whole gain will be taxed for US 1040.


.

[desi485]

You are wrong here. You do have show NRO account (or Share Account or Mutual Fund Account) in US 1040 tax return, but you get credit for foreign tax paid in India.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf

Foreign-Source Income (Page 20)
Foreign Tax Credit (Page 40)




Since there was no tax paid for NRE account interest, the whole gain will be taxed for US 1040.


.

I am talking about including account on FBAR.

I included both my accounts on FBAR irrespective of TDS in india or not.

However I filed amended only for one of those 2 accounts as there was no TDS.

[desi3933]

I am talking about including account on FBAR.

I included both my accounts on FBAR irrespective of TDS in india or not.

However I filed amended only for one of those 2 accounts as there was no TDS.

>> However I filed amended only for one of those 2 accounts as there was no TDS.
One must include all the accounts in 1040 tax return, whether or not that account has foreign tax deducted at source (TDS) or not.

I suggest that you verify this with your CPA who has expertise in international income sources.

.

[desi485]

>> However I filed amended only for one of those 2 accounts as there was no TDS.
One must include all the accounts in 1040 tax return, whether or not that account has foreign tax deducted at source (TDS) or not.

I suggest that you verify this with your CPA who has expertise in international income sources.

.

hmmm... sorry my bad. I did not made it clear to understand. When I said amended return, I meant didn't have to pay tax. I did all these process using help of a CPA. He showed my (TDS) account, but since the tax was already deducted by bank (my parents send me bank's letter) I did not have to again pay tax on that.

However, I did have to pay tax in case of account with no TDS.

hope it is clear now.

[desi3933]

hmmm... sorry my bad. I did not made it clear to understand. When I said amended return, I meant didn't have to pay tax. I did all these process using help of a CPA. He showed my (TDS) account, but since the tax was already deducted by bank (my parents send me bank's letter) I did not have to again pay tax on that.

However, I did have to pay tax in case of account with no TDS.

hope it is clear now.

I know what you mean.

Usually the tax is higher in India for TDS than US 1040, so one gets extra credit, since foreign tax paid is higher.


.

[bhobama]

FYI, Deadline is not extended. The FBAR is delinquent if filed after 30 June and you need to attach a statement explaining why it is late. Its just that IRS will not penalize you for the delinquent FBAR until Sept 23.

see this.

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

[hebron]

Thank you desi485 ! I guess I should not be concerned then, because the cash surrender value for LIC policies are usually 30 - 35% of the premium paid excluding the first years premium (which in my case wouldn't amount to $10000). Just to make sure that I got this right, the term CASH SURRENDER VALUE used here is for premature termination of a life insurance policy, correct?

Also what about gifts made to the parents? I am assuming that as long as the gifts go from a US account to another person's account overseas, no FBAR is necessary.


I am confused now about the LIC cash surrender value and the requirement to file FBAR. I read the FAQ and the FBAR instructions but it doesn't say anything about the cash surrender value amount. It doesn't say that if cash surrender value is greater or lesser than $10000 FBAR needs to be filed. Does this mean that FBAR should be filed no matter what the cash surrender value amount is?

Here is excerpt from IRS FAQ ...
A “financial account” is defined by the IRS to include “any bank, securities, securities derivatives or other financial instruments accounts. The term includes any savings, demand, checking, deposit, or any other account maintained with a financial institution or other person engaged in the business of a financial institution. Individual bonds, notes, or stock certificates held by the filer are not a financial account nor is an unsecured loan to a foreign trade or business that is not a financial institution.” (From Instructions to Form 90-22.1). The IRS takes the position that both foreign mutual funds and life insurance policies (or possibly annuities) with cash surrender value are included within the meaning of the term “financial account.”

[vvicky72]

Does anyone know when this FBAR thing started? I have never filled it out and I am sure I had > 10K $ in Indian banks for the last 3-4 years. Do I have to send some kind of amendment FBAR for 2006 and 2007 also?

[insbaby]

Does anyone know when this FBAR thing started? I have never filled it out and I am sure I had > 10K $ in Indian banks for the last 3-4 years. Do I have to send some kind of amendment FBAR for 2006 and 2007 also?

FBAR has been there for long time. Make copies of the document and fill up for the previous years, write a cover letter saying, you were not aware of it.

URS/Treasury says that they worry about only people who are hiding money and not the one who goes and declare volunteerly.

They started little more aggressively this year and you know that most of the countries are doing this nowadays to get the hidden money from Swis.

The money you have saved in FBAR is nothing compared to 50 million saved in Swis by some big fish.

It is important and the awareness of FBAR is increasing, So correct it this year and do not wait for next year.

A good sign is, IRS extended time for filing this year and use it. It may be a OPEN WINDOW for everyone who missed in previous years.

[willwin]

my a/c had total deposits of $10,000 exactly,but the highest value on that a/c was less than $2,000 at any given time. Remaining amounts were used for various expenses.
Do i need to file an FBAR?

Did you get a reply to this?

The IRS website mentions "aggregate value of all accounts exceeding $10,000 ...".

Is it same as total deposit in a year exceeding $10,000?

Or, does it mean, balance at anytime exceeding $10,000?

[shukla77]

I had the same question and looking for answers..



Did you get a reply to this?

The IRS website mentions "aggregate value of all accounts exceeding $10,000 ...".

Is it same as total deposit in a year exceeding $10,000?

Or, does it mean, balance at anytime exceeding $10,000?

[simple1]

Kindly note: this query is not about FBAR. It is about amending and including NRE interest.

Not sure if this is answered before. I have NRE Account Interest that is currently not TDS. Like Citibank my bank doesn’t send 1099.

as a "resident alien / H1B " From a legal point of view (not the amount of tax point of view)

Is it better to Pay taxes in India and get credit in US.
-or-
Pay taxes in US and get credit in India.

Please note: Some websites seem to suggest that NRE interest > 1lakhs is taxable in india.
NRE Income Up To Rs 1 Lakh Not Taxable - The Financial Express (http://www.financialexpress.com/news/NRE-Income-Up-To-Rs-1-Lakh-Not-Taxable/114438/)

I am assuming it would be easier to file in india and get exempted for interest below 1lac. Any thoughts ?

I know what you mean.

Usually the tax is higher in India for TDS than US 1040, so one gets extra credit, since foreign tax paid is higher.


.

[willwin]

I had the same question and looking for answers..

OK Looks like it is balance which should exceed 10K at given time in a year and not sum of the transactions one has made in a year.

I will post more once I hear from my CPA.

[arunmohan]

Hello Guru:

I sent money to India in year 2008 more than 10,000$ for paying the loan of my house. Basically I never had 10,000$ at one time in the bank, it was always between 6-7K $. Do I still need to show to IRS?

Thanks in advance.

[sdrblr]

OK Looks like it is balance which should exceed 10K at given time in a year and not sum of the transactions one has made in a year.

I will post more once I hear from my CPA.


I also have the same question(s)
1) Is it ?$10K at any time or aggregate for the year.
2) since my citi NRI does not pay any interest, I dont have to declare it.

Does this mean no FBAR for me. I have sent an email to my CPA and waitingggggggg !!!! :)

[desi485]

I also have the same question(s)
1) Is it ?$10K at any time or aggregate for the year.
2) since my citi NRI does not pay any interest, I dont have to declare it.

Does this mean no FBAR for me. I have sent an email to my CPA and waitingggggggg !!!! :)

guys, fbar is to declare the foreign bank account. No connection with interest payment. This form is to be mailed to dept of tresurey.

However if you missed showing interest on your 1040 to IRS, file an amendement. So both are different (yet connected in someway) things.

[desi3933]

Kindly note: this query is not about FBAR. It is about amending and including NRE interest.

Not sure if this is answered before. I have NRE Account Interest that is currently not TDS. Like Citibank my bank doesn’t send 1099.

as a "resident alien / H1B " From a legal point of view (not the amount of tax point of view)

Is it better to Pay taxes in India and get credit in US.
-or-
Pay taxes in US and get credit in India.

Please note: Some websites seem to suggest that NRE interest > 1lakhs is taxable in india.
NRE Income Up To Rs 1 Lakh Not Taxable - The Financial Express (http://www.financialexpress.com/news/NRE-Income-Up-To-Rs-1-Lakh-Not-Taxable/114438/)

I am assuming it would be easier to file in india and get exempted for interest below 1lac. Any thoughts ?

>> Is it better to Pay taxes in India and get credit in US

This may be a preferred option.


_________________
Not a legal advice

[desi3933]

Did you get a reply to this?

The IRS website mentions "aggregate value of all accounts exceeding $10,000 ...".

Is it same as total deposit in a year exceeding $10,000?

Or, does it mean, balance at anytime exceeding $10,000?

Combined Balances of all accounts (outside USA) at anytime exceeding $10,000.


_________________
Not a legal advice

[simple1]

thanks a lot for clarifying my queries.

>> Is it better to Pay taxes in India and get credit in US

This may be a preferred option.


_________________
Not a legal advice

[desi3933]

thanks a lot for clarifying my queries.

You are welcome.

Please note that for NRE accounts tax paid in India may be zero, and in such cases, credit of foreign taxes does not apply.


.

[hebron]

Could you please let me know what documents needs to be attached with the TD F 90-22.1 form?

Thanks!









I am confused now about the LIC cash surrender value and the requirement to file FBAR. I read the FAQ and the FBAR instructions but it doesn't say anything about the cash surrender value amount. It doesn't say that if cash surrender value is greater or lesser than $10000 FBAR needs to be filed. Does this mean that FBAR should be filed no matter what the cash surrender value amount is?

Here is excerpt from IRS FAQ ...
A “financial account” is defined by the IRS to include “any bank, securities, securities derivatives or other financial instruments accounts. The term includes any savings, demand, checking, deposit, or any other account maintained with a financial institution or other person engaged in the business of a financial institution. Individual bonds, notes, or stock certificates held by the filer are not a financial account nor is an unsecured loan to a foreign trade or business that is not a financial institution.” (From Instructions to Form 90-22.1). The IRS takes the position that both foreign mutual funds and life insurance policies (or possibly annuities) with cash surrender value are included within the meaning of the term “financial account.”

[BharatPremi]

Anyone who stayed more than 183 days in 2008 here in US, must declare all their accounts in home country or any other country, if at any time, the cumulative value in those accounts exceeded $10,000. IRS extended the declaration deadline to September 23, 2009.

I came to know about this today only and I am planning to submit this as soon as possible. Please follow the following links to educate yourself.


Indians in US have to disclose offshore accounts- Tax News-Tax Savers-Personal Finance-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Personal-Finance/Indians-to-disclose-offshore-ACs/articleshow/4221013.cms)


Official IRS Pages describing these:

Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210247,00.html?portlet=6)

September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

FAQs Regarding Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148845,00.html)

As per Indian Income Tax laws, every Indian becoming NRI MUST file return every year. If the person does not have any income in India after getting the NRI status, s/he still needs to file "NIL" return. How many NRI should be following that? We all know that answer.. Well,,people will adopt the same strategy here...

[gimme_GC2006]

As per Indian Income Tax laws, every Indian becoming NRI MUST file return every year. If the person does not have any income in India after getting the NRI status, s/he still needs to file "NIL" return. How many NRI should be following that? We all know that answer.. Well,,people will adopt the same strategy here...

Hey..is that true about NRI's filing taxes in India?

Hmm...I didnt knew that.

[desi3933]

As per Indian Income Tax laws, every Indian becoming NRI MUST file return every year. If the person does not have any income in India after getting the NRI status, s/he still needs to file "NIL" return. How many NRI should be following that? ......

Well, you need to get this right first -

There is no requirement to file Income Tax return, if the Income in India for NRI comprises only of Investment Income and/or Long Term Capital gains and for such income, tax has been deducted at source.

Definition for NRI - Stay in India less than 60 calendar days for the tax filing fiscal year (April to March). Person must be citizen of India as well.

Fine - There is a fine of 1% per month on taxes due for delayed filing of taxes.

Penalty - There is a penalty of Rs 5,000 that could be charged by IT Dept, if the Income Tax return is due and not filed within one year of end of Fiscal year for the tax filing year.


______________________
Not a legal advice.
US citizen of Indian origin

[vvicky72]

Say if I had two accounts.
Account_1 had 10K. Account_2 had nothing.
Then I transferred 3K from account_1 to account_2 .

Should I mention both accounts on the form? and if so what should I mention in the "max account balance"? If I mention 10K on one and 3K on another, it would seem that I had 13K in total in offshore accounts, but essentially I had only 10K.

And why the heck they need my account number. Talk about financial security !!

[desi3933]

Say if I had two accounts.
Account_1 had 10K. Account_2 had nothing.
Then I transferred 3K from account_1 to account_2 .

Should I mention both accounts on the form? and if so what should I mention in the "max account balance"? If I mention 10K on one and 3K on another, it would seem that I had 13K in total in offshore accounts, but essentially I had only 10K.

This is "max account balance" as you mentioned. No reason to confuse with net account balance.

And why the heck they need my account number. Talk about financial security !!

For the same reason why you file taxes. You should, probably, talk to CPA to get some basic facts right.


.

[cj4ualways]

Hello everyone,
if i understand correctly for any interest on NRE account should be reported here to the IRS through 1116 form and if we have any bank account with $10K at any point of time then we should file the 90221 form.

I checked my NRE account and other than the interest i didnt cross-the 10K mark at any point of time. Therefore i need to file 1116 for interest. In addition, since i didnt do it ever i need to file an amendement for the last 4 years.

However, on the NRO account i took a house loan and the HDFC bank deposited 50K in that account. Will that still needs to be reported as NRO is taxable in India? Please let me know your thoughts.
Regrds
CJ

[gc_check]

Hello everyone,
if i understand correctly for any interest on NRE account should be reported here to the IRS through 1116 form and if we have any bank account with $10K at any point of time then we should file the 90221 form.

I checked my NRE account and other than the interest i didnt cross-the 10K mark at any point of time. Therefore i need to file 1116 for interest. In addition, since i didnt do it ever i need to file an amendement for the last 4 years.

However, on the NRO account i took a house loan and the HDFC bank deposited 50K in that account. Will that still needs to be reported as NRO is taxable in India? Please let me know your thoughts.
Regrds
CJ

Think CitiNRI and other now issue 1099INT for tax purpose. I did receive one and did put that in the tax filing for 2008. Just an FYI. Have not got time to research on this yet.. I've the review and should declare if I have too.

[cj4ualways]

I did not know about this thing until now and in addition did not receive 1099 from either ICICI or SBI. In addition, i am amazed that even professional softwares like turbo tax didnt include this.

[newtoearth]

This FBAR is really sick...

I need to pay taxes on the income that I earned in India to US? Silly
Hell, they won't consider

1. My Parents as my dependents
2. I made 3 lakhs donations in India those amounts are not tax exempt here
3. My LIC premiums are not tax deductible here...

But I need to pay tax on my Indian income ....

These people are real robbers ....:mad:
DAMN

[vvicky72]

This is "max account balance" as you mentioned. No reason to confuse with net account balance.



For the same reason why you file taxes. You should, probably, talk to CPA to get some basic facts right.


.

Hmm.. so you are saying that you mention your bank account numbers in your US tax returns? I don't think so.
I think asking account numbers is invasion of privacy. They can ask the amounts and the name of the banks, but not the account numbers !

[desi3933]

Hmm.. so you are saying that you mention your bank account numbers in your US tax returns? I don't think so.
I think asking account numbers is invasion of privacy. They can ask the amounts and the name of the banks, but not the account numbers !

Read this
Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148849,00.html)

A United States person is not prohibited from owning foreign accounts. The FBAR is required because foreign financial institutions may not be subject to the same reporting requirements as domestic financial institutions.
.

[desi485]

Read this
Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148849,00.html)

.

Guys, whatever is your reasoning, FBAR is a rule and you must obey this being a resident of US. The actual deadline is June 30 - which is long gone. However it is extended as explained by 'desi3933' - so do it at your earliest. It is as easy as filling a small form (PDF), print and mail. On a side note, thank you to 'desi3933' for sharing this and also taking pain answering all kind of questions about this.

[waiting4_gc]

General Definitions
United States Person. The term “United States person”
means a citizen or resident of the United States, or a person
in and doing business in the United States.

[desi3933]

General Definitions
United States Person. The term “United States person” means a citizen or resident of the United States, or a person in and doing business in the United States.

IRS Clarifies Requirement for Filing FBAR Form Due This Month (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=209418,00.html)


For this year, taxpayers and others can rely on the definition of a United States person included in the prior instruction: “United States Person The term “United States person” means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.”

.
Note - Emphasis added for clarity.

[gccovet]

This FBAR is really sick...

I need to pay taxes on the income that I earned in India to US? Silly
Hell, they won't consider

1. My Parents as my dependents
2. I made 3 lakhs donations in India those amounts are not tax exempt here
3. My LIC premiums are not tax deductible here...

But I need to pay tax on my Indian income ....

These people are real robbers ....:mad:
DAMN

Per my desi CPA, If you have a NRI/NRE account and you are not filing any income tax in India ( you have to file a NIL statement in INDIA even if the amount earned is not in any tax brackets) then you should include it in IRS tax returns. I have always declared all my NRI account, Bank names and interest earned since last 10 years.

gccovet

[simple1]

when is the deadline ? 9/23 or 6/5 ?

IRS Clarifies Requirement for Filing FBAR Form Due This Month (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=209418,00.html)



.
Note - Emphasis added for clarity.

[simple1]

BUMPing this thread.

[swaraj]

>> I'm not sure how to calculate the interest paid in dollars

Here are the steps -
1. Get the total interest (or dividend) received for the month
2. Get dollar to rupee conversion on the last business day of the month
3. Repeat 1 and 2 for every month
4. Repeat 1, 2, and 3 for every financial institution

Calculation Example -

For the month of June 2008
interest received = Rs 12,000
Currency Conversion
2008-06-30 June 30, Monday 0.0232937 USD
12000 * 0.0232937 = $ 279.52 for the month of June 2008
.


I read this in Attorneys at Faegre & Benson LLP (http://www.faegre.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=9631)
To encourage taxpayers to disclose the existence of foreign accounts, and to provide consistency in the handling of disclosures, the IRS adopted a voluntary disclosure process on March 23, 2009, that will apply through September 23, 2009. The voluntary disclosure process has three key elements:

1. Taxpayers need to pay the tax and interest on the omitted income going back six years (taxable years 2003–2008).
2. A penalty (generally 20 percent) will be added to the unpaid tax liability. No reasonable cause exception will be applied.
3. The penalty for failing to file the FBAR will be 20 percent of the highest balance in the account at any time during the last six years (instead of 50 percent for each annual failure to file).


Do we have to also have to add penalty of 20% on interest income while filing 1040 amendment, and do we also need to add 20% of maximum balance ? (eg., if someone had 15000$, should he add 15000*0.2= 3000$)


EDIT : I just found the same instruction here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/faqs.pdf

Assume the taxpayer has the following amounts in a foreign account over a
period of six years. Although the amount on deposit may have been in the
account for many years, it is assumed for purposes of the example that it is not
unreported income in 2003.
(NOTE: This example does not provide for compounded interest, and assumes
the taxpayer is in the 35-percent tax bracket, files a return but does not include
the foreign account or the interest income on the return, and the maximum
applicable penalties are imposed.)
If the taxpayer comes forward and has their voluntary disclosure accepted
by the IRS, they face this potential scenario:
They would pay $386,000 plus interest. This includes:
- Tax of $105,000 (six years at $17,500) plus interest,
- An accuracy-related penalty of $21,000 (i.e., $105,000 x 20%), and
- An additional penalty, in lieu of the FBAR and other potential penalties that
may apply, of $260,000 (i.e., $1,300,000 x 20%).

This confirms that one also has to pay 20% of max. balance held while filing 1040 amendment

[Tortoise]

Guys
I just have a saving account in India and I used to transfer more than 10 k while I purchase anything back at home. My quest is my money was never there sitting in bank more than a month, do I need to disclose this to IRS?

Pls do let me know.

Thanks,

[TravInd]

How about joint accounts? what if the balance is above 10,000 and less than 20,000 dollars?
This is confusing.

[swaraj]

Guys
I just have a saving account in India and I used to transfer more than 10 k while I purchase anything back at home. My quest is my money was never there sitting in bank more than a month, do I need to disclose this to IRS?

Pls do let me know.

Thanks,

Since IRS will have info of account no, it might be able to get your account history which has a new row created for each credit/debit , and then take the max. value. I would download account history into a spreadsheet, and take max. value of balance held after each transaction.
Remember, one has to also pay a penalty of 20% of max. balance held since last 6 years for not filing FBAR for previous years.

[smuggymba]

Does this include money sent to India over the past years to the familiy ?

[ca_immigrant]

if u think ur account might be one of the 4,450 acount mentioned here...then u better file :)

Bank agreement expected to scare US tax dodgers - Yahoo! Finance (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bank-agreement-expected-to-apf-2378975196.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=2&asset=&ccode=)

if not I really wonder if they would have the time patience and intelligence to care....

but again...I donno....

[TravInd]

I have transfered money over past 8 years to my uncles account for family maintence. I am sure at no time the amount I transfered was over 3000. And the money I have sent were always used up. Should declare my uncles account as well. This is a grey area as my uncle my also have his balance in it.

[smuggymba]

I send money to family and it's been all used up. Do we declare balances or every penny that has been send overseas?

[designserve]

This is on the clarification page
IRS Clarifies Requirement for Filing FBAR Form Due This Month (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=209418,00.html)

For this year, taxpayers and others can rely on the definition of a United States person included in the prior instruction: “United States Person The term “United States person” means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.”

Which category do the H1B holders fall??

[desi3933]

This is on the clarification page
IRS Clarifies Requirement for Filing FBAR Form Due This Month (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=209418,00.html)

For this year, taxpayers and others can rely on the definition of a United States person included in the prior instruction: “United States Person The term “United States person” means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.”

Which category do the H1B holders fall?


>> Which category do the H1B holders fall?
--- Check the bold part ---

The term “United States person” means (1) a citizen or resident of the United States, (2) a domestic partnership, (3) a domestic corporation, or (4) a domestic estate or trust.”


___________________
Not a legal advice.

[desi3933]

How about joint accounts? what if the balance is above 10,000 and less than 20,000 dollars? This is confusing.


It does not matter, if it is a joint account or not. It still be aggregated sum of all foreign accounts >= US $10,000 at any time in that calendar year. Once again, at any time.


___________________
Not a legal advice.

[desi3933]

Guys
I just have a saving account in India and I used to transfer more than 10 k while I purchase anything back at home. My quest is my money was never there sitting in bank more than a month, do I need to disclose this to IRS?

Pls do let me know.

Thanks,


Yes, as long as sum of all foreign accounts >= US $10,000 at any time. In this case, since one account value exceeds US$ 10,000 value, it does meet the reporting criteria.

___________________
Not a legal advice.

[dontcareanymore]

Yes, as long as sum of all foreign accounts >= US $10,000 at any time. In this case, since one account value exceeds US$ 10,000 value, it does meet the reporting criteria.

___________________
Not a legal advice.

Does this also mean that (S)he should pay 20% penalty for not filing FBAR before.

Say for example you send transfer 10K to your overseas account from your US account (tax paid money) and that money never accrued any interest overseas because it stayed in the bank for a day. That warrants $2000 penalty because FBAR was not filed before ?

[swaraj]

Does this also mean that (S)he should pay 20% penalty for not filing FBAR before.

Say for example you send transfer 10K to your overseas account from your US account (tax paid money) and that money never accrued any interest overseas because it stayed in the bank for a day. That warrants $2000 penalty because FBAR was not filed before ?

Yes, that's the main component of the penalty framework.

Pl. read answer to Question 12 in this link : http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/faqs.pdf

[GCA]

Yes, that's the main component of the penalty framework.

Pl. read answer to Question 12 in this link : http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/faqs.pdf

I don't think the response is correct. Question 12 only applies to people with unreported taxable income. Question 9 is the more appropriate one. And as per this, all you need to file is the 'delinguent FBAR' along with explanation for late filing.

And IRS will NOT impose penalty for failure to file the FBARs.

[idasgupt]

So if I file taxes in India regularly on interest that I am getting on my Indian bank accounts, even then I need to pay taxes on the same bank accounts in the US ? This seems like double taxation.

[newbee5]

Just wanted to know If wire transfer above $10000(one transaction)thro' US bank, to one of your indian NRE account,is there any thing we need to declare in any form about the remittance?
Thanks.

[thomachan72]

So if I file taxes in India regularly on interest that I am getting on my Indian bank accounts, even then I need to pay taxes on the same bank accounts in the US ? This seems like double taxation.
Two scenarios;
1) A person (H1b) files tax jointly with spouse (H4). He/she becomes ineligible for stimulus money because the spouse (H4) did not have SSN.
2) The spouse has accounts abroad and pays taxes according to local laws. How do you expect him/her to declare the income in that country and pay tax once more when he/she cannot be considered eligible for stimulus pay? or unemployment benefits if such need arises??
3) I belive this is all to prevent american citizens to evade tax by earning money elsewhere and hiding it in foreign accounts (mainly switzerland). This is a good thing and hopefully other countries should also try to catch their citizens who have swiss acounts.
4) For members of IV who are crying about sending petty amounts to their home countries out of their hard earned money (tax payed already) I dont think the principle and philosophy of income tax would find them at any fault. They know that repatriation to home countries exist among temporary workers and they also know that these people are subjected to taxation in their home countries.
Please dont worry about these things. When you wire money, automatically the bank will inform the Govt about this event. It is only when you carry cash/cashiers check etc while travelling (flying/driving) out of the US and it is above 10,000 that you need to worry about declaring it in certain forms.

[hsingh82]

Two scenarios;
1) A person (H1b) files tax jointly with spouse (H4). He/she becomes ineligible for stimulus money because the spouse (H4) did not have SSN.
2) The spouse has accounts abroad and pays taxes according to local laws. How do you expect him/her to declare the income in that country and pay tax once more when he/she cannot be considered eligible for stimulus pay? or unemployment benefits if such need arises??
3) I belive this is all to prevent american citizens to evade tax by earning money elsewhere and hiding it in foreign accounts (mainly switzerland). This is a good thing and hopefully other countries should also try to catch their citizens who have swiss acounts.
4) For members of IV who are crying about sending petty amounts to their home countries out of their hard earned money (tax payed already) I dont think the principle and philosophy of income tax would find them at any fault. They know that repatriation to home countries exist among temporary workers and they also know that these people are subjected to taxation in their home countries.
Please dont worry about these things. When you wire money, automatically the bank will inform the Govt about this event. It is only when you carry cash/cashiers check etc while travelling (flying/driving) out of the US and it is above 10,000 that you need to worry about declaring it in certain forms.


I second it, so not worrying about it.

[thomachan72]

So long as you are not a permanent resident (GC holder) or citizen it is understood that you are a temporary worker or a poor student or a a poor researcher who probably owns a small tea shop in his/her country. If this nation comes after the small income that you generate from your tea shop then hell that is NASTY!! They have other things to worry about and not only that the indian/other govts wont allow foreign nations to meddle in their internal income tax regulations unless international fraud is suspected. So all poor IV members be at rest dont worry about your acounts in India/china but be careful if you have something up there where chese/chocklate/rolex is made best.
I think we should worry about how to obtain SS benefits if ever some of us had to leave the US. Let us be informed about the requirements to claim SS benefits not about what more you have to give out of the petty sums you have struggled to save.

[idasgupt]

ok, no worrying about it

[newbee5]

I don't think the response is correct. Question 12 only applies to people with unreported taxable income. Question 9 is the more appropriate one. And as per this, all you need to file is the 'delinguent FBAR' along with explanation for late filing.

And IRS will NOT impose penalty for failure to file the FBARs.
can you please clarify what about schedule B, is to be attached now for those old ones?

[tail-of-Q]

If any 10k remittance needs to be reported, I am pretty sure there'd be flood of reports from all H1B holders (many orders of magnitude more than 4450).

I heard there was some new IT rule in India that if your income was below taxable limit, you could file for last 3 or 5 years. That can save lot of us I think...

[simple1]

How does delinquent FBAR for multiple years work ?
- send multiple forms for each year
or
- send in the latest (FY2008).

Can some one advice ?

[desi485]

How does delinquent FBAR for multiple years work ?
- send multiple forms for each year
or
- send in the latest (FY2008).

Can some one advice ?

I have an overseas account opened few years back. I became aware of this 'fbar' rule only this year. I sent one for 2008 in month of march 08.

I am not sure if this is correct procedure but could not find any other information.

Also, approached CPA who had no clue. I haven't hear back from anyone since I mailed the form. You can file amended fbar but no where I could find information what to do if you missed previously for any reason. If you come to know about this, do share with all of us in the same boat.

[feedfront]

Bump

[simple1]

The following link describes process for FBAR2008 only.
September 23 Deadline for Some FBAR Filers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210174,00.html)

In addition to the “if we need to send the old FBAR's” question. I have following addtional questions
1. for old "FBARS" : Send FBAR forms only -or- send FBAR+taxreturn
2. for old "FBARS" : Send it to "Detroit, MI 48232-0621" only -or- send addtional copy to "Philadelphia, PA 19154".

Even CPA's are not giving clear answers. Experts please advice

I have an overseas account opened few years back. I became aware of this 'fbar' rule only this year. I sent one for 2008 in month of march 08.

I am not sure if this is correct procedure but could not find any other information.

Also, approached CPA who had no clue. I haven't hear back from anyone since I mailed the form. You can file amended fbar but no where I could find information what to do if you missed previously for any reason. If you come to know about this, do share with all of us in the same boat.

How does delinquent FBAR for multiple years work ?
- send multiple forms for each year
or
- send in the latest (FY2008).

Can some one advice ?

[simple1]

IRS Extends FBAR Filing Deadline for "foreign commingled funds". personal Bank accounts deadline is still 9/23/2009.

IRS Extends FBAR Filing Deadline for Certain U.S. Persons Until June 30, 2010

Source: Fulbright & Jaworski LLP - On August 7, 2009, the Internal Revenue Service (the "IRS") extended the filing deadline until June 30, 2010, for U.S. persons to report certain foreign financial accounts on Form TD F 90-22.1, Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts ("FBAR"). In Notice 2009-62, the IRS stated that persons with signature authority over, but no financial interest in, a foreign financial account, and persons with a financial interest in, or signature authority over, a foreign commingled fund, have until June 30, 2010, to file an FBAR for the 2008 and earlier calendar years with respect to such foreign financial accounts.

Linex Legal > Fulbright & Jaworski LLP > IRS Extends FBAR Filing Deadline for Certain U.S. Persons Until June 30, 2010 (http://www.linexlegal.com/content.php?content_id=103100)

[feedfront]

Bump

[gcfordesi]

Hi,

i never had 10K at a time but i have been paying off 1500 every month for HOME loan.

Is it 10K per year or 10k any time During Our stay in US ?

If the Account is a Joint account NRE Saving - will it still be considered for FBAR ?

This is so messed up we.....

[feedfront]

^^

[sriramkalyan]

Dont worry .. if this makes us Illegal or Criminal ..we are in good shape here in USA.

[jsb]

Here is the situation. I send money every month let us say 1000$ to NRO account. Now in 10 days when the money is withdrawn balance goes to 200$. So really at NO POINT OF TIME the balance reached 10K. but If I add the total amount deposited then it is more than 10K. So is it 10K at any point in time or 10K total ( from Jan to Dec.) Is it just me or???

This information is not on how much you send out. It is how much you ever held in a foreign account. In your case, it was never more than 10K so you dont have to worry. It is a routine info sent to Treasury, and usually no one looks at them unless funds are more than 100K.

[chaks7]

I send money to parents and brother. They do some investments in real estate. I myself do not own any bank account or LIC policy. In that case does FBAR affect me? Should I still file FBAR? Any suggestions or clarifications are highly appreciated.

-Thanks.

[simple1]

I think: food/study/rental expenses to parents/brothers or any dependents are not considered as gift.
In your case, you gifted for investment. I think it may fall under gift tax.
Frequently Asked Questions on Gift Taxes (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html)

not sure about the fbar.

I send money to parents and brother. They do some investments in real estate. I myself do not own any bank account or LIC policy. In that case does FBAR affect me? Should I still file FBAR? Any suggestions or clarifications are highly appreciated.

-Thanks.

[hoolahoous]

I myself do not own any bank account or LIC policy.

you are supposed to declare 'YOUR' accounts in FBAR, not your family's. So unless those accounts have YOUR name on it (either as joint account holder, or signing authority) you don't need to declare those accounts.

[bowbow]

did any one get official mail from IRS? if not, how do you know to declare the Overseas accounts?

[simple1]

be assured it is a law and you need to comply. read through all posts in this thread.

h1b/l1b principals:
Citibank does send 1099 (on your SSN) to you for NRE account interest ( forcing you to file the income and declare with IRS via FBAR if balance > 10k). citibank does send this info to IRS (due to 1099).

It seems others dont do.

dependants:
I am not sure how the whole thing works on dependants. as they dont have SSN.

did any one get official mail from IRS? if not, how do you know to declare the Overseas accounts?

[simple1]

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=213463,00.html

IR-2009-84, Sept. 21, 2009

WASHINGTON ─ The Internal Revenue Service today announced a one-time extension of the deadline for special voluntary disclosures by taxpayers with unreported income from hidden offshore accounts. These taxpayers now have until Oct. 15, 2009.

Under special provisions issued in March, taxpayers with these hidden accounts originally had until Sept. 23, 2009 to come forward. Those taxpayers who do not voluntarily disclose their hidden accounts by the new deadline face much harsher civil penalties, where applicable, and possible criminal prosecution.

IRS officials decided to extend this deadline after receiving repeated requests from tax practitioners and attorneys around the country following an influx of taxpayer requests. By extending the deadline for a short period of time, the IRS is providing relief for those taxpayers who had intended to come forward prior to the deadline, but faced logistical and administrative challenges in meeting it. The extension will allow tax preparers and attorneys the necessary time to interview and advise their backlog of taxpayers with these hidden accounts, and prepare the necessary paperwork to qualify for the special penalty provisions.

The IRS also announced that there will be no further extensions.

Voluntary Disclosure: Questions and Answers
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210027,00.html

Google News:
IRS extends taxpayers' deadline on of... - Google News (http://news.google.com/news/more?ned=us&cf=all&ncl=dmX3ahzixrWjWoMMEvJNCJ7dqetIM)

[looivy]

If my bank account is less than 500,000 INR do I still declare it. What is the process? Is there a form. Also, what if I have unrealized gains. How do I report it?

I opened the account in 2009. Do I still need to disclose my bank account?

Thanks.

IRS Extends Deadline for Disclosing Hidden Offshore Accounts (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=213463,00.html)

IR-2009-84, Sept. 21, 2009

WASHINGTON ─ The Internal Revenue Service today announced a one-time extension of the deadline for special voluntary disclosures by taxpayers with unreported income from hidden offshore accounts. These taxpayers now have until Oct. 15, 2009.

Under special provisions issued in March, taxpayers with these hidden accounts originally had until Sept. 23, 2009 to come forward. Those taxpayers who do not voluntarily disclose their hidden accounts by the new deadline face much harsher civil penalties, where applicable, and possible criminal prosecution.

IRS officials decided to extend this deadline after receiving repeated requests from tax practitioners and attorneys around the country following an influx of taxpayer requests. By extending the deadline for a short period of time, the IRS is providing relief for those taxpayers who had intended to come forward prior to the deadline, but faced logistical and administrative challenges in meeting it. The extension will allow tax preparers and attorneys the necessary time to interview and advise their backlog of taxpayers with these hidden accounts, and prepare the necessary paperwork to qualify for the special penalty provisions.

The IRS also announced that there will be no further extensions.

Voluntary Disclosure: Questions and Answers
Voluntary Disclosure: Questions and Answers (http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=210027,00.html)

Google News:
IRS extends taxpayers' deadline on of... - Google News (http://news.google.com/news/more?ned=us&cf=all&ncl=dmX3ahzixrWjWoMMEvJNCJ7dqetIM)

[gvenkat]

Dont worry .. if this makes us Illegal or Criminal ..we are in good shape here in USA.

My thoughts exactly.. if they bring CIR and find out that we are doing this our GC's could be fast. :D