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View Full Version : VISAGATE scandal: Do we want this?


srikondoji
07-12-2007, 11:16 AM
I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

gimme Green!!
07-12-2007, 11:23 AM
As much as I dislike USCIS for what they did, looking far, they will put scrutiny into paperwork verification, name checks, etc and somehow the fallguys could still be us by getting pushed more to the wall, especially when things like security breach, etc are brought up.

What a mess, USCIS??

I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

diptam
07-12-2007, 11:36 AM
I mean we are not here to Probe and dig Govt scams and extreme politics.

Our goal should not divert - agreed - you made a valid Point

I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

srikondoji
07-12-2007, 11:40 AM
It looks like as more and more people are on the pulse of this scandals, we are loosing the sight of our goals and unknowingly on the warpath to score a point over the concerned agencies.
We need to mitigate this whole issue and bargain and immediately get out of it.

All this makes sense in the light of Chertoff's recent al-qaeda statements and the USCIS ignoring the security clearances in approving GCs.

I think Core should immediately drive this mess and land it safely instead of letting the mebers drive it to point of no return.

Just my 2 cents.
--sri

I mean we are not here to Probe and dig Govt scams and extreme politics.

Our goal should not divert - agreed - you made a valid Point

Legal
07-12-2007, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=srikondoji]
Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.QUOTE]

Do you REALLY think these events are happening because of our lobbying and because of our protests?? I'm afraid you are overstimating our strength.

1. Perennial tensions, miscommunication and hostility b/w DOS and USCIS have led to this point where they are.

2.Legislators, and Immigration lawyers-all US citizens- are fed up. More legislators are likely to show interest in the coming days on what the heck was going on at USCIS between 6/13/07 to 7/2/07. We can not do anything about this now. We don't have to make celebratory or hostile statments against USCIS. That's all we can do.

3. We haven't done anything wrong. We were victims and we have politely asked them to reconsider and enable us to get some interim benefits.

WaitingForMyGC
07-12-2007, 11:54 AM
I award Phd to all Immigration Voice members on their research on Green Card related issues. Kudos !!!:D

priderock
07-12-2007, 11:59 AM
I think you are trying to make it very simplistic. If the rumors are true it is a very big mess and beyond our control. You sound like IV can sit with some USCIS official and bargain. I don't think it is that simple and there are no good solutions to this.

What do you think IV shall and can do here ? Please elaborate !

I don't think IV is only entity fighting this.

I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

hopefulgc
07-12-2007, 11:59 AM
agreed ...we are possibly venturing into an area where regulators might put a stop on any further visa authorizations until they "investigate" the mess; which we all know will be a multi-year ordeal.

"Total stop on employment based immigration" .. albeit temporary.... This would be an anti-immigration lobbyist's dream come true.
We need some control here.

srikondoji
07-12-2007, 12:01 PM
I agree and iam totally with you. We didnot move a thing and still the structures began to crumble under their own weight.

But Aila, our IV oragnaization and others could sit together and negotiate this whole mess with DOS and USCIS.

Also, DOS and or USCIS did not show any animosity so far towards us.
They want to talk to us.

So lets do it.
--sri


[QUOTE=srikondoji]
Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.QUOTE]

Do you REALLY think these events are happening because of our lobbying and because of our protests?? I'm afraid you are overstimating our strength.

1. Perennial tensions, miscommunication and hostility b/w DOS and USCIS have led to this point where they are.

2.Legislators, and Immigration lawyers-all US citizens- are fed up. More legislators are likely to show interest in the coming days on what the heck was going on at USCIS between 6/13/07 to 7/2/07. We can not do anything about this now. We don't have to make celebratory or hostile statments against USCIS. That's all we can do.

3. We haven't done anything wrong. We were victims and we have politely asked them to reconsider and enable us to get some interim benefits.

priderock
07-12-2007, 12:04 PM
I agree and iam totally with you. We didnot move a thing and still the structures began to crumble under their own weight.

But Aila, our IV oragnaization and others could sit together and negotiate this whole mess with DOS and USCIS.

Also, DOS and or USCIS did not show any animosity so far towards us.
They want to talk to us.

So lets do it.
--sri


[QUOTE=Legal]

What makes you believe they want to talk to us ?

shannonxi
07-12-2007, 12:05 PM
Yes it's time to sit down and negotiate not keep digging. We need to focus on our goals and benefits.

We don't want to become political tools. A

Anything we can do to start the talk? Or should we deliver our voice to AILA?

justAnotherFile
07-12-2007, 12:05 PM
"But Aila, our IV oragnaization and others could sit together and negotiate this whole mess with DOS and USCIS"

Buddy this is a gov agency, they are answerable to congress and whitehouse no one else. And congress does not act based solely on AILA and IV campaigns, if they smell dirty schemes, they have the authority to go after it.
The individual congressman(woman) may do this for a whole number of reasons.

justAnotherFile
07-12-2007, 12:06 PM
btw we are just recipients of information.

The digging is being done by investigating attorneys..

priderock
07-12-2007, 12:09 PM
Yes it's time to sit down and negotiate not keep digging. We need to focus on our goals and benefits.

We don't want to become political tools. A

Anything we can do to start the talk? Or should we deliver our voice to AILA?

What makes you think USCIS SIT WITH YOU and talk ? Why would they ? I dont see any indication of that.

Even if they talk what would be your demands ?
Accept all applications ?
Accept those reached by July 2 ?
Only those reached before 10.30 AM on Jul 2 ?
Those post marked before July 2 ?
Extend the time until end of AUG because some folks canceled their doctors appointments ?

This is very messy situations and there is no fair way out.

BTW , I can understand peoples enthusiasm on news paper reports about flower campaign. But just because it is reported in few news papers , we cant control every thing or any thing related to immigration.

We can however send more flowers :) :) and request them to be fair and considerate.

priderock
07-12-2007, 12:15 PM
And all this digging is not to get mileage , but to make sure the process is fair and balanced.

This is mostly being done by the judicial and legislative means and that is called checks and balances.

johnamit
07-12-2007, 12:23 PM
I know we are at the end of chain but looking at all these details, scandals, plotical pressure on VB to move forward and then move to 'U', senators blaming H1 who don't even know that H1 is 6 yr and not 5 and thinking everybody who is in 6th yr is overstaying doing $5 job after $50/hr job, the whole thing looks messy and unlikely to roll in positive direction.
On top now visas going back, question from senators blah blah blah

Oh my god, I don't think things are moving in right direction. At least USCIS issued tons of visas lets say without namecheck but at least some folks got out of this mess, thats a favor to us.
I am all confused with these ..
GOD BLESS AMERICA

jonty_11
07-12-2007, 12:25 PM
I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.
even if someone is found guilty (whic will never happen) President will pardon him like libby....and rest assured teh trials will be short...a few months..

But no one is going into trial with this.....there will be a settlement, the congress and White House already has their hands full with Libby, Attorney's firing, Wiretapping issues, Iraq etc..

makemygc
07-12-2007, 12:36 PM
I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

More than 100% agree with you. We do not want scandal but the results. With USCIS returning VISAS to DOS, I do not understand how this is going to help us.

We should better sit with AILF and negotiate with USCIS rather than filing lawsuit. I'm not sure how this can happen. With more and more this thing getting into scandolous mode, my hopes are getting dimmer and dimmer.

byeusa
07-12-2007, 12:39 PM
I award Phd to all Immigration Voice members on their research on Green Card related issues. Kudos !!!:D


Now with the Phd, can we file EB1 and make it U as well for the next 5 years?

srikondoji
07-12-2007, 12:50 PM
condi has indicated that they are ready to talk this on MSNBC.

What makes you think USCIS SIT WITH YOU and talk ? Why would they ? I dont see any indication of that.

Even if they talk what would be your demands ?
Accept all applications ?
Accept those reached by July 2 ?
Only those reached before 10.30 AM on Jul 2 ?
Those post marked before July 2 ?
Extend the time until end of AUG because some folks canceled their doctors appointments ?

This is very messy situations and there is no fair way out.

BTW , I can understand peoples enthusiasm on news paper reports about flower campaign. But just because it is reported in few news papers , we cant control every thing or any thing related to immigration.

We can however send more flowers :) :) and request them to be fair and considerate.

howzatt
07-12-2007, 12:59 PM
condi has indicated that they are ready to talk this on MSNBC.

I can't believe people still fall for such politically correct statements. She was just trying to calm down the situation by saying this.

Unless AILA is not reporting the truth, I do not see any discussions with the govt. over this fiasco.

srikondoji
07-12-2007, 01:08 PM
Talking and listening to their stand is not falling, but giving them a chance to correct themselves and also explain our side of the story.
This is an oppurtunity not a carrot.

I can't believe people still fall for such politically correct statements. She was just trying to calm down the situation by saying this.

Unless AILA is not reporting the truth, I do not see any discussions with the govt. over this fiasco.

Powersa
07-12-2007, 01:12 PM
I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

I don't know. I think that a lot of us are pretty screwed as is. But I guess that you're saying that it could be worse than this in the future.

Fear......

priderock
07-12-2007, 01:44 PM
condi has indicated that they are ready to talk this on MSNBC.

If you take it woth the context , this is what she said :

.................................................. .................................................. ........
There's a ceiling that's set every year and when that ceiling was reached, then we couldn't issue the visas any longer. But we're prepared to talk to people about what happened here.

She said she will discuss about what happened. She will explain that there are no numbers available and we shall wait until OCT. It does not mean that she is accepting a mistake and ready to talk to us to correct it.

GooblyWoobly
07-12-2007, 02:04 PM
I don't agree. I understand all these started with the aim that we get the applications accepted, but as more info is coming out, I'm getting more and more disgusted by USCIS and people around it.

We have two options.... we can get to a negotiation, make them accept the older July bulletin and the applications, be happy with EAD/AP, and in near future, USCIS screws some of us/some of our future fellow immigrants again. OR, we can persue this and at least get them to fix some of the flaws in the system. The first approach is what we have been taking for India (bribe some, get the work done, be happy). It just might be I don't have that much zeal for GC, or haven't waited long enough (PD - Sept 2005, filed I485 on July 5th, 2007), but I think the things are going on the right path.

Just my 2c/

I know, we are all getting happier day by day as more and more insider information is leaking out.
We are cherishing the fact that some senators, soe higher ups in DOS, USCIS have broken the law and also the fact that anti-immigrants are behind this whole scandal.

But, wait......
What are we trying to get out of this scandal?
The bigger this scandal gets, the more screwed we will be.
So, we should make it look like only few people are involved and try to bargain for a sttlement instead of expanding this probe deeper into law makers.

I am afraid that we are destroying our own oppurtunities by digging deeper into july fiasco.

Assume all those rumours are true, what do you think will happen?
Investigation, court hearings and then may be a settlement. But all this will not happen within a month or two.

I think, IV core should take a handle on this whole issue and steer us through to get some mileage out of this.

GIDOC
07-12-2007, 02:16 PM
It is difficult to say how this will help or hurt in the future. But not doing anything is also not an option. This issue or the legal immigration mess needed some attention. They have been just talking about ILLEGAL immigratio n for the last two years !!! Folks like me are not not going to benefit from the July fiasco. But, I hope this brings the woeful job the USCIS has been doing over the last years to light. This would be a good opportunity ask for more transparency in the system. Also would be a good time to stress the need to pass a legislation to re-capture all the used visa numbers ( > 200 K).
The unnecesary long delays caused by the FBI namecheck process is another very sore issue. We should use this opportunity to bring all these important points to the congressmen and senators attention.

gimme Green!!
07-12-2007, 02:48 PM
She is going to say that the numbers were exhausted. I do not see anywhere that she will give an explanation on the goof-up. USCIS & DOS - what a mess!!

If you take it woth the context , this is what she said :

.................................................. .................................................. ........
There's a ceiling that's set every year and when that ceiling was reached, then we couldn't issue the visas any longer. But we're prepared to talk to people about what happened here.

She said she will discuss about what happened. She will explain that there are no numbers available and we shall wait until OCT. It does not mean that she is accepting a mistake and ready to talk to us to correct it.

Googler
07-12-2007, 04:51 PM
Do we want this -- are you kidding? -- we most freakin certainly do!

Do you think that the anarchy (approvals for PDs that were not current, approvals without security check) that happened at USCIS in the last 3 weeks was an isolated incident? Since they do not release any info on applicants approved by EB preference, Priority Date and Country we have no idea if they really do give our green cards in order -- all they tell us is the total number of EBs given to a certain country (http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2006/table11d.xls) -- we have no idea if they do in fact follow priority date order and procedure in handing out green cards, esp when there is an "excess" of greencards. They have resisted publishing this information despite repeated requests from the Ombudsman -- only Congress can legislate to make them do it.

The whole security check process is also a black box: when do they initiate the check, is there a frontlog at FBI, how do they keep track of whether the FBI is done, do they really only approve when the check is done.

If nothing else if this inquiry

(a) shines a torch on the bat cave that is USCIS -- it is a good thing

(b) leads to a rider to any other bill that makes the recapture mandatory i.e. visas wasted by USCIS in any FY roll over to the next year -- it is a good thing.

(c) finally rationalizes the security check process (read the Ombudsmans report) -- it is a good thing.

v7461558
07-12-2007, 05:13 PM
The best things to possibly come out of this are visa recapture and expedited FBI namecheks. The exposure that was given to USCIS actions in the past weeks clearly illuminates the need for recapture: USCIS cannot manage the queue, so that visa numbers are wasted: unused in the past years, or returned to DOS (per Zoe Lofgren) this July. Jay Solomon estimated up to 30k unused visas from the July fiasco. If they keep their procedure of assigning visa numbers to the namecheck-uncleared backlog, it can possibly be up to all 140k unused EB visas in FY2007.

If USCIS relinquishes their operations records that the Congresswoman requested voluntarily (not likely), or under a subpoena during a Committee hearing (more likely), they become public record. In addition to making the process more transparent and fair to new applicants, this record will clearly substantiate the need for visa number recapture, making it easier to pass the needed legislation.

However, I cannot readily see how the scandal would help expedite the namechecks.