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View Full Version : Bush Backtracks on CIR,A Long wait for Legal Immigrants is certain.


vicky007
07-05-2006, 04:03 PM
Folks,

If what has been mentioned below is true , then it will be atleast 2 years before the fence is completed and before the House would even consider a compromise plan.Trouble is once the fence is completed and the elections are held in 2008 why should they even consider a immigration bill? so folks it looks like 2010-2011 before the congress member would allow any tangible relief to the immigrants(in time for the 2012 elections).

According to Immigration-Law.com

"New York Times reports that Republicans both inside and outside the White House say Mr. Bush, who has long insisted on comprehensive reform, is now open to a so-called enforcement-first approach that would put new border security programs in place before creating a guest worker program or path to citizenship for people living in the United States illegally."

Legal
07-05-2006, 04:15 PM
;)

It looks like long wait for "ILleagal IMMIGRANTS" is certain. How did you make any inference about legal immigrants from that news item????:confused:

TheOmbudsman
07-05-2006, 04:21 PM
Personally I have a different pespective:
Chances are the H1B lobbysts will push the SKIL bill using the legitimate reasons that waiting for CIR is unrealistic. I have said sincel last year, as long as our issues are dealt separately, we will have more chances.


;)

It looks like long wait for "ILleagal IMMIGRANTS" is certain. How did you make any inference about legal immigrants from that news item????:confused:

knnmbd
07-05-2006, 04:37 PM
Personally I have a different pespective:
Chances are the H1B lobbysts will push the SKIL bill using the legitimate reasons that waiting for CIR is unrealistic. I have said sincel last year, as long as our issues are dealt separately, we will have more chances.

Yeah, but wait till you see all the provisions of the SKIL stripped and thrown out , till only the H1B increase clause remains, and then the SKIL bill will pass without any opposition. That's what the industry wants, the congress wants and we will see this horrific event unfold quicker than anticipated. Guys the SKIL bill is through, but no reason for any of us to celebrate.

go_gc_way
07-05-2006, 04:46 PM
Folks,

If what has been mentioned below is true , then it will be atleast 2 years before the fence is completed and before the House would even consider a compromise plan.Trouble is once the fence is completed and the elections are held in 2008 why should they even consider a immigration bill? so folks it looks like 2010-2011 before the congress member would allow any tangible relief to the immigrants(in time for the 2012 elections).

According to Immigration-Law.com

"New York Times reports that Republicans both inside and outside the White House say Mr. Bush, who has long insisted on comprehensive reform, is now open to a so-called enforcement-first approach that would put new border security programs in place before creating a guest worker program or path to citizenship for people living in the United States illegally."


It is unclear to me how this news development means a long wait .. If I remember right IV has already clarfied ... CIR will take a long time... means no further bets on CIR.

So if it is a long wait .. this is an old news. But thanks for bring up the latest on CIR where in few amendments that will reduce retrogression are also left behind.

GCBy3000
07-05-2006, 04:46 PM
I agree with knnmbd. The history should teach lessons for us on this. Still I would support IV on this bill to fight for our cause no matter what the outcome is going to be.


Yeah, but wait till you see all the provisions of the SKIL stripped and thrown out , till only the H1B increase clause remains, and then the SKIL bill will pass without any opposition. That's what the industry wants, the congress wants and we will see this horrific event unfold quicker than anticipated. Guys the SKIL bill is through, but no reason for any of us to celebrate.

Legal
07-05-2006, 04:49 PM
>>>>till only the H1B increase clause remains, and then the SKIL bill will pass without any opposition<<<<

:rolleyes:

Your frustration is understandable...but ur interpretation seems to be
too pessimistic.....

It would be EXTREMELY idiotic to increase H1B and not do anything on EB....I hope :( this wouldn't happen. I agree that this can not be entirely ruled out.

Even if they wouldn't allow increase in EB numbers aren't there provisions to file for EAD in SKIL bil?

logiclife
07-05-2006, 04:54 PM
If what has been mentioned below is true , then it will be atleast 2 years before the fence is completed and before the House would even consider a compromise plan.Trouble is once the fence is completed and the elections are held in 2008 why should they even consider a immigration bill? so folks it looks like 2010-2011 before the congress member would allow any tangible relief to the immigrants(in time for the 2012 elections).

According to Immigration-Law.com

"New York Times reports that Republicans both inside and outside the White House say Mr. Bush, who has long insisted on comprehensive reform, is now open to a so-called enforcement-first approach that would put new border security programs in place before creating a guest worker program or path to citizenship for people living in the United States illegally."

It is very unlikely that an enforcement only bill would exclude title 6 that deals with relief for legal immigration backlogs. Legal immigration is not related to success or failure of enforcement approach. The borders security measure and interior enforcement measure are consequential to the success of amnesty and guest-worker program. None of these things are in any way related to legal immigration numbers.

Legal immigration numbers is a matter of debate too, but independent from border security and interior enforcement. It does not have to wait for 2-4 years until the success of border-security and interior enforcement is measured.

Now, I agree that Congress does not always work on logical reasoning.

However, universities and hi-tech lobbies, along with grass-roots like us are not going to sit around if legal immigration backlog relief is not tackled.

This country is driven by incentives. Congress has an incentive to pass legal immigration relief in order to support the hi-tech industry that supports them in many many ways known to mankind during um...mm. elections. The evidence is introduction of SKIL in a Republican house that passed HR 4437. It has 10 Republican sponsors. The Republican sponsors are split up as :

Of 11 sponsor/co-sponsor.

7 Have A or A+ grading by anti-immigration groups like NumbersUSA.
2 have B or B+.
2 have C or C-.

These guys, who sponsored SKIL in house are generally restrictionists who support HR 4437 enforcement only bill. They are the same ones who put SKIL in the House, which means that the enforcement-first-amnesty-later Crowd, including its chief proponent Mike Pence, have made SKIL a priority before any of the other things. Not out of good heart and pity on highly skilled maybe. But for some other reason. The same reason Section 8 was introduced in Omnibus bill S 1932 last year.

Have some patience, something will happen this year. In any case, it cannot be later than 2007 as this is the last term of Sensenbrenner as Jud commitee chairman. Next year it would be someone else. If Dems win, it could be John conyers.

TheOmbudsman
07-05-2006, 05:03 PM
Folks, as long as what is being asked is reasonable, we may have chances with the SKIL bill.

Also, regarding the specific plight of the employment base retrogression, it is critical that we build support with Numbersusa and other immigration reduction groups. I e-mailed Roy Beck (Numbersusa) and explained our issue and he himself agreed that we deserve a solution to take the veterans EB, who already went thru the painful labor certification when market was hot years ago - or so it was what he said to me. You have to understand that just increasing the numbers of EB drastically on a permanent basis would alarm many Americans though. We need to be careful there.

As long as we do not ask aburds things on those bills, we may succeed. If you start asking for greencards left and right for people who got "advanced degrees to self petition, etc..." well, we may fail again then.

Simply ask a moderate increase in visa numbers sufficient to take the veterans out of this mess. To late applicants and new people coming in the EB3 piple, remember that someday, the 245(i) amnesty cases that are said to be the major bottleneck at DOL/USCIS should go away, then even greencard numbers go back to 180,000/year, let's say, EB3's should still be talking about a waiting time of 2-3 years for a greencard, what it is not too bad. I don't know about the numbers yet, but my proposal is that we discuss and we come up with a proposal to increase the numbers at a point to make our total wait for a greencard no longer than 2 years. Americans are in bad mood against immigration in general, therefore we shall not ask too much and expect to get visa numbers increased to bring all categories current.

Sending e-mails to senators to remind them 'vote YES for SKIL bill' is not what lobbying is about. We need an efficient lobbying agent to introduce VERY REASONABLE countermeasures on our behalf. Remember, asking unreasonable things means defeat again.

TheOmbudsman
07-05-2006, 05:10 PM
So far, the intention of Sen. Kennedy - and the Presidente alike - is to pass a bill which does contain the amnesty provision - but with a delay (ot time bomb) provision on it. I still believe that amnesty is amnesty and opposers may not accept even a delayed amnesty. However, one might think that if a secure+time bomb amnesty ever passes, our immigration provisions - not necessarily delayed - may be included with it.




It is very unlikely that an enforcement only bill would exclude title 6 that deals with relief for legal immigration backlogs. Legal immigration is not related to success or failure of enforcement approach. The borders security measure and interior enforcement measure are consequential to the success of amnesty and guest-worker program. None of these things are in any way related to legal immigration numbers.

Legal immigration numbers is a matter of debate too, but independent from border security and interior enforcement. It does not have to wait for 2-4 years until the success of border-security and interior enforcement is measured.

Now, I agree that Congress does not always work on logical reasoning.

However, universities and hi-tech lobbies, along with grass-roots like us are not going to sit around if legal immigration backlog relief is not tackled.

This country is driven by incentives. Congress has an incentive to pass legal immigration relief in order to support the hi-tech industry that supports them in many many ways known to mankind during um...mm. elections. The evidence is introduction of SKIL in a Republican house that passed HR 4437. It has 10 Republican sponsors. The Republican sponsors are split up as :

Of 11 sponsor/co-sponsor.

7 Have A or A+ grading by anti-immigration groups like NumbersUSA.
2 have B or B+.
2 have C or C-.

These guys, who sponsored SKIL in house are generally restrictionists who support HR 4437 enforcement only bill. They are the same ones who put SKIL in the House, which means that the enforcement-first-amnesty-later Crowd, including its chief proponent Mike Pence, have made SKIL a priority before any of the other things. Not out of good heart and pity on highly skilled maybe. But for some other reason. The same reason Section 8 was introduced in Omnibus bill S 1932 last year.

Have some patience, something will happen this year. In any case, it cannot be later than 2007 as this is the last term of Sensenbrenner as Jud commitee chairman. Next year it would be someone else. If Dems win, it could be John conyers

Legal
07-05-2006, 05:13 PM
>>>If Dems win, it could be John conyers<<<

1. I don't think Dems will take the house due to excessive redistricting...this is fake democracy.

2. Conyers is most likely pro-illegals (vote bank politics) and anti-legals

TheOmbudsman
07-05-2006, 05:14 PM
There is no indication showing that Dems would take control. I would not even think about it. There is evidence to the contrary actually.

>>>If Dems win, it could be John conyers<<<

1. I don't think Dems will take the house due to excessive redistricting...this is fake democracy.

2. Conyers is most likely pro-illegals (vote bank politics) and anti-legals

indianindian2006
07-05-2006, 05:19 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/05/AR2006070501022.html

priderock
07-05-2006, 05:37 PM
>>>>till only the H1B increase clause remains, and then the SKIL bill will pass without any opposition<<<<

:rolleyes:

Your frustration is understandable...but ur interpretation seems to be
too pessimistic.....

It would be EXTREMELY idiotic to increase H1B and not do anything on EB....I hope :( this wouldn't happen. I agree that this can not be entirely ruled out.

Even if they wouldn't allow increase in EB numbers aren't there provisions to file for EAD in SKIL bil?

He is not being pessimestic. Just being realistic. Industry wants H1B to increase the pool and cut down the cost, It is not in their BEST interest to get you a GC TODAY.

If I were a corporate big shot that is what I want. It is not idiotic.

ujjvalkoul
07-05-2006, 05:40 PM
IF it is not in the interest of Industry to get us GCs, then what is our way out.

How about all 500K of us just go back to our respective countries, that seems to be the only solution here.

gsc999
07-05-2006, 05:44 PM
Folks, as long as what is being asked is reasonable, we may have chances with the SKIL bill.

Also, regarding the specific plight of the employment base retrogression, it is critical that we build support with Numbersusa and other immigration reduction groups. I e-mailed Roy Beck (Numbersusa) and explained our issue and he himself agreed that we deserve a solution to take the veterans EB, who already went thru the painful labor certification when market was hot years ago - or so it was what he said to me. You have to understand that just increasing the numbers of EB drastically on a permanent basis would alarm many Americans though. We need to be careful there.

------------
People who changed jobs and had to re-file are veterans also.
Your proposal is too simplistic and divisive.

vicky007
07-05-2006, 05:51 PM
;)

It looks like long wait for "ILleagal IMMIGRANTS" is certain. How did you make any inference about legal immigrants from that news item????:confused:

Because the congressmen have said any reform be it for legal immigrants immigrants or for illegal immigrants would be looked into only if and after the fence is put up.

TheOmbudsman
07-05-2006, 06:21 PM
If your PD is 2002/2003 or earlier, it doesn't matter whether you have changed jobs or not. So far this legal immigration community has been disgraced with divisions among ourselves. If we don't step back and realize that the mood is out there is not in our favor, we will get nowhere.

------------
People who changed jobs and had to re-file are veterans also.
Your proposal is too simplistic and divisive.

Raju
07-05-2006, 06:29 PM
If your PD is 2002/2003 or earlier, it doesn't matter whether you have changed jobs or not. So far this legal immigration community has been disgraced with divisions among ourselves. If we don't step back and realize that the mood is out there is not in our favor, we will get nowhere.

What if ones application was delayed, because one has changed his job in 2004, although he was here since 1999? On contrast some other person was here since 2003 and filed his labor in 2003? It does matter if you have changed the job because your PD changes with your job unless you were able to port that PD to your new job(which does not happen in most cases)

abimanyu
07-05-2006, 08:04 PM
Folks,

Without re-hashing what has gone right and gone wrong. Why don't we start an intense lobbying effort, letter-writing or fax or call campaign focused on the Congress and even the White House to exclusively to remove EB retrogression and expedite the processing of applications at the backlog reduction centers. The overall goal is not to focus on increasing H1-B quotas or the Greencard numbers. The focus should be on congress passing some special provisions giving temporary or emergency relief for legal immigrants stuck in the logjam for years. Note: almost all of us are already in the system or in the Q to speak-off; therefore we might fruitfully concentrate on speeding up the Q rather than waiting for comprehensive legislation. It seems there is sufficient traction in the Congress for this sort of move.

The goal must be heartfelt appeal for mercy and the pity of the congressional members instead of seeking their wrath by asserting our rights (or lack thereof). As with all strategies this is a long shot, but it might work be a positive approach and potentially work.

My two cents, and I am willing to assist in drafting the letter.

atlfp
07-05-2006, 08:59 PM
Many core republicans, like sen. Jeff Sessions, hates immigrations. They view immigrations as a "pollution". Obviously they can not say so publically but whatever reason they put out is just an excuse. Today it's law and order, tomorrow it'is protecting american jobs, the day after tomorrow it's for national security. Remember Trent Lott lost his senate majority because of making a stupid comments? He accidently said what he meant about blacks.

With these people in the senate and the house, it's very hard to predict that once CIR is dead, legal immigrant will do better. Sensenbrenner publically said nothing else will happen before enforcement. He knew the plight of legal immigrant. Yet he is just using illegal as an excuse to block legal immigration. These are the same people who shot down S.1932, which was purely for legal immigrant.

I see an increase of H1B quota comming, but green card quota is much less certain. Their attitude is basically I want your skills, but I won't give you green card --- and get out if you don't think it's worth it. Typical republican bullish.


Personally I have a different pespective:
Chances are the H1B lobbysts will push the SKIL bill using the legitimate reasons that waiting for CIR is unrealistic. I have said sincel last year, as long as our issues are dealt separately, we will have more chances.

gsc999
07-05-2006, 09:15 PM
Folks,

Without re-hashing what has gone right and gone wrong. Why don't we start an intense lobbying effort, letter-writing or fax or call campaign focused on the Congress and even the White House to exclusively to remove EB retrogression and expedite the processing of applications at the backlog reduction centers. The overall goal is not to focus on increasing H1-B quotas or the Greencard numbers. My two cents, and I am willing to assist in drafting the letter.
---
Wow, this post is really amazing. Have much self-respect does one have to loose before stooping to this level. Shame on you. Please do not demean our cause by proposing such misconstrued emotional appeals.

I don't want to be too negative but this message lacks basic understanding of immigration issue, legistlative and political process in US.

go_gc_way
07-05-2006, 09:29 PM
------------
People who changed jobs and had to re-file are veterans also.
Your proposal is too simplistic and divisive.


That would be a divisive plan .. and yes, is it not who changed jobs and had to file for GC later are veterans?

I am in favor of removing present retrogression all together .. and I believe all that is in SKIL BILL is that effort.

dixie
07-05-2006, 09:51 PM
Folks, as long as what is being asked is reasonable, we may have chances with the SKIL bill.

Also, regarding the specific plight of the employment base retrogression, it is critical that we build support with Numbersusa and other immigration reduction groups. I e-mailed Roy Beck (Numbersusa) and explained our issue and he himself agreed that we deserve a solution to take the veterans EB, who already went thru the painful labor certification when market was hot years ago - or so it was what he said to me. You have to understand that just increasing the numbers of EB drastically on a permanent basis would alarm many Americans though. We need to be careful there.



Do I smell a divide and rule tactic here from numbersUSA ? since when have they started loving "veteran" GC applicants ? It is a ridiculous assumption to believe they will support us if demands are "reasonable". If you think CIR is unreasonable because of self-petition provisions, then what about S1932 ? NumbersUSA heavily lobbied against that too, and openly rejoiced when our provisions were deleted.

Look, my friend, our community is small to begin with.The above proposal benefits absolutely no one. Even if you believe numbersUSA has suddenly turned benovalent, it only benefits a miniscule section of the crowd. There are scores of people like me who have an interest in a long-term solution to this GC harassment, who support IV because its goal is exactly that.

And why do you sound so apologetic to press for a GC ? We are neither tax-evaders nor law-breakers nor amnesty seekers. As logiclife said in an earlier thread, if we want a GC, we got to truly believe we deserve it; not beg for it. If certain people dont want to "increase" immigration, let them get the H1-B and F-1 visas stopped immediately. And yes, stop riling about outsourcing and start taking math lessons more seriously.

cagedcactus
07-05-2006, 10:15 PM
>>>>till only the H1B increase clause remains, and then the SKIL bill will pass without any opposition<<<<

:rolleyes:

Your frustration is understandable...but ur interpretation seems to be
too pessimistic.....

It would be EXTREMELY idiotic to increase H1B and not do anything on EB....I hope :( this wouldn't happen. I agree that this can not be entirely ruled out.

Even if they wouldn't allow increase in EB numbers aren't there provisions to file for EAD in SKIL bil?

And believe me if you heard those IDIOTS playing with our future in that house, you wouldnt comment on it like this.
The guy is correct. They want the H1-b cap tp increase, not EB numbers.
they have got us exactly where they wanted. This bottle neck is not going to get smooth. CIR, or SKILL, mark my words, our sufferings are just begining. :rolleyes: They will brush aside every single thing that could help us, and create new enslavement laws.
:mad:

posmd
07-05-2006, 11:32 PM
Never trust a thing that NumbersUSA says or does.

They are simply for one thing, putting an end to all immigration.

Honestly they do not care about veteran EBs, novice EBs, H1Bs or any other immigrant.

They oppose everything, they divide to conquer. S1932 demonstrated it, clearly.
Not even the recapture of 100K numbers survived.

This hogwash from them is to be ignored.

jkays94
07-06-2006, 07:24 AM
I e-mailed Roy Beck (Numbersusa) and explained our issue and he himself agreed that we deserve a solution to take the veterans EB, who already went thru the painful labor certification when market was hot years ago - or so it was what he said to me. You have to understand that just increasing the numbers of EB drastically on a permanent basis would alarm many Americans though. We need to be careful there.

I do not know how sincere Mr. Beck is but I have to say that NumbersUSA is more than likely to preach water and drink wine. Take a look at their faxes (http://www.numbersusa.org/faxcenter?action=preview&ID=4838) when considering this. I find it hard to believe based on their reasons that they would support any immigrant worker when they claim that there are 14 million Americans without a full-time job. Either way I still commend you for trying to change Mr. Beck's view but I am sorry to say it may have been an exercise in futility and a shot in the arm for Mr. Beck's ego.

srikondoji
07-06-2006, 10:25 AM
The fencing and then path to citizenship is for illegal immigrants and not for legally working skilled workers. There is a greater chance that skilled labor force will go ahead in the race to getting GC.
Just my 2 paise

brb2
07-06-2006, 11:41 AM
If the democrats come to power, they will only push the envelope on the illegals - those who would be most likely to vote for them. I had watched the senate judiciary committee proceedings and was appalled at the behaviour of CA democrat Ms. Diane Fienstein. She pushed green cards for farm workers and in the same breath put in a motion to increase fees for legal immigrants (students to GC). This has ensured that I will be voting republicans for at least two decades from the time I get the vote.

Guys realize, the only way we can benefit is through republicans who are pro business. Businesses can continue to get access to illegals with or without any legislation. But how many businesses can employ an Engineer or IS person without EAD?? Businesses desparately need H1B and also green cards. The republicans will deliver that for sure. The only hitch is Bush who want a "comprehensive" legislation and so also Senator Spector.

Postings about veteran green card waiter and others is meaningless. No one is going to differentiate that.

The other point we need to make is that the root cause of illegal immigration must be removed before amnesty. One is border controls, and second is improved legal immigration processing and avenues for both permanent and temporary worker permits (GC and guest worker programs). So pushing for reform of legal immigration is neccessary pre-requisite for providing amnest to illegals already in the US.

On a side note, those in the green card queues go through yearly renewals of EAD, AP etc where as the 12 million or so go on with the lives without any of those hassles including filing AR-11 forms when moving!