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chanduv23
09-27-2007, 08:56 AM
While we are trying our best to fix a broken system and brace ourselves, lets take a look at what is happening in other parts of the world.

European Union is introducing a Blue Card that will allow you to work in any of the EU coountries

Euro value is rising against dollar

Opportunities will be on the rise with strengthening the currency.

Lets run this thread for sharing views, opinions, experiences and anything related to the EU

SK2007
09-27-2007, 10:03 AM
While we are trying our best to fix a broken system and brace ourselves, lets take a look at what is happening in other parts of the world.

European Union is introducing a Blue Card that will allow you to work in any of the EU coountries

Euro value is rising against dollar

Opportunities will be on the rise with strengthening the currency.

Lets run this thread for sharing views, opinions, experiences and anything related to the EU

Can you also attach the links on information about this blue card, it is something very new to me.

engineer
09-27-2007, 10:15 AM
http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=11377&formato=pdf

chanduv23
09-27-2007, 11:12 AM
A common card that can be used for different countries - gives excellent mobility - improves standards - induces competition - this concept looks good and promising.

Please share some more info if available. Lest discuss pros and cons

engineer
09-27-2007, 11:17 AM
This is great news for IV cause..IV can use this to its advantage to prove the EU will get immigrants easily and US will face pressure in getting highly skilled immigrants.

We know it very well that most of the students go to EU, Australia etc due to delays in F1 visas and less prospects of getting green card..

gc_bulgaria
09-27-2007, 11:24 AM
While we are trying our best to fix a broken system and brace ourselves, lets take a look at what is happening in other parts of the world.

European Union is introducing a Blue Card that will allow you to work in any of the EU coountries

Euro value is rising against dollar

Opportunities will be on the rise with strengthening the currency.

Lets run this thread for sharing views, opinions, experiences and anything related to the EU

Chanduv23: Right now it is just a proposal and as the article says, many rich European countries are not willing to take in immigrants. Forget about Asian or African immigrants, they are reluctant to let even Romanians and Bulgarians work in their countries (although they are part of EU now). Racism is much higher in many of those countries and I was recently reading an article about getting PD in Switzerland - basically communities vote in favor or against and if you are not "white" itís very hard to get that vote.

The reason this threads interests me is because I am an Indian national married to a Bulgarian and we live and work in the US. EU is the next option for us if this GC drags on too long. Technically I can work anywhere in the EU including UK but I am not sure if it will be easy enough to find a job Ė America still has the best opportunities in my field.

OK, Iíll stop rambling now and look forward to more thoughts from IV members.:o

monkeyman
09-27-2007, 11:28 AM
I have worked in France and Belgium for a little over an year and this is my personal experience - the work environment at that time 2000 - 01 was alright. However, I had to struggle with language barriers and worse of all - the keyboard barriers. The standards in IT industry were very very different and though it was an experience, the learning curve was huge. Personally, I would much rather prefer to be in US or better still in UAE I'd think.

Next, I have been reading a lot about reverse brain drain - where families were going back home. I also heard about some site about return2India.com. And my brother took the step after pondering over it for an year - he had it all - GC, a family here, job at you know where in Seattle - and his experience has been an enlightment - he is now struggling with work life ratio - he spends most of the day/night at work and he has to pay bills at the bank and he has no clue what is going on at the school and somehow, his team in India thinks he is a smartass because he tries to apply certain standards (which ofcourse is normal here) and he speaks with an accent. And yes, if you studied here and lived for 10 years, you too will have the accent. But, he says he is very satisfied and happy to be there.And then he says, the pay scale is sufficient for him and his family to lead the Indian dream. We should have some way of commuicating with such expatriates too!!!

yabadaba
09-27-2007, 11:56 AM
moneyman->awesome post on your brother's experience. this will enable many of us fence sitters thinking about r2i ing to take the plunge.

Libra
09-27-2007, 12:03 PM
First we come here which is completely different environment and struggle to adjust, then after 10 yrs or so, if we go back then struggle to adjust in home country.

chanduv23
09-27-2007, 12:04 PM
Well - though white racists may oppose - anything related to economy and development does go through.

I personally think that if this proposal goes through - EU will be the next melting pot.

Racism is there everywhere, we find it in US also, even in India, you find caste system and inter state racism. With rising opportunities, such things may not really be visible especially in places where there are free zones.

Does anyone has more info on this?

newuser
09-27-2007, 12:08 PM
http://return2india.org/

chanduv23
09-27-2007, 12:09 PM
First we come here which is completely different environment and struggle to adjust, then after 10 yrs or so, if we go back then struggle to adjust in home country.

You don't have to struggle in home country. You were born and raised there and I do not see a need to struggle.

And you are not struggling here also, you have come to pursue your dream, everyone here have jobs, we are just trying to fix a broken system here.

garybanz
09-27-2007, 12:16 PM
I have worked in France and Belgium for a little over an year and this is my personal experience - the work environment at that time 2000 - 01 was alright. However, I had to struggle with language barriers and worse of all - the keyboard barriers. The standards in IT industry were very very different and though it was an experience, the learning curve was huge. Personally, I would much rather prefer to be in US or better still in UAE I'd think.

Next, I have been reading a lot about reverse brain drain - where families were going back home. I also heard about some site about return2India.com. And my brother took the step after pondering over it for an year - he had it all - GC, a family here, job at you know where in Seattle - and his experience has been an enlightment - he is now struggling with work life ratio - he spends most of the day/night at work and he has to pay bills at the bank and he has no clue what is going on at the school and somehow, his team in India thinks he is a smartass because he tries to apply certain standards (which ofcourse is normal here) and he speaks with an accent. And yes, if you studied here and lived for 10 years, you too will have the accent. But, he says he is very satisfied and happy to be there.And then he says, the pay scale is sufficient for him and his family to lead the Indian dream. We should have some way of commuicating with such expatriates too!!!

Thanks for sharing your brothers experience with us. My sister and Brother in law also took a similar decision about 2 years back and yes they were quite frustrated too, my brother in law even started looking for options to come back to US, for some reason he never returned .

Now they are pretty comfortable, they feel that it takes a while to get adjusted to India again but once they got used to living life the India way they just loved it...now they keep trying convince me to go back ;)

Libra
09-27-2007, 12:20 PM
thats true, it will take a while to adjust in home country once you move back, but after a while you feel so good that you never think of leaving the country. My family forcing me to look for a job in India.

prince_waiting
09-27-2007, 12:27 PM
Cultural barriers are not so insurmountable in the US as those in the EU.

Even with the Blue Card can one work towards the naturalization process in order to become a citizen? In US you can surely do that after 5-6 years I guess.

US gives citizenship by birth to our children if they are born on US soil, EU countries do not do that. Switzerland goes to the extent of invloving local communities before deciding an applicant's request. Please refer to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6992670.stm

However we can surely make lawmakers aware of the existing competition and argue to reform the EB immigration system.

gc_bulgaria
09-27-2007, 12:34 PM
Well - though white racists may oppose - anything related to economy and development does go through.

I personally think that if this proposal goes through - EU will be the next melting pot.

Racism is there everywhere, we find it in US also, even in India, you find caste system and inter state racism. With rising opportunities, such things may not really be visible especially in places where there are free zones.

Does anyone has more info on this?

Few more links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6992670

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007_01_23/japan/immigrant_worker_shortage.htm

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/07/188

andy garcia
09-27-2007, 01:33 PM
You don't have to struggle in home country. You were born and raised there and I do not see a need to struggle.

And you are not struggling here also, you have come to pursue your dream, everyone here have jobs, we are just trying to fix a broken system here.

I have 2 European co-workers. They both told me, "The only way we will go back to Europe is when we die".

Zil
09-28-2007, 04:20 AM
I have 2 European co-workers. They both told me, "The only way we will go back to Europe is when we die".

Which European countries are they from? Their opinion can be relevant in this context if they are from a rich EU country, but less convincing if they are from Albania, for example.

vin
09-28-2007, 05:08 AM
Come on guys, stop comparing the US with the EU. Even though the $ is down a little bit due to the Subprime mess, it's only a temporary phenomenon and investors will be soon rushing into the US once confidence improves and $ will regain.

Apart from the $, EU is not the US and is no way near the US economy or the opportunities you can find here. The annual income is also less compared to what you can make here in the US and above all US is still the superpower in the world and the rights you get here even as an immigrant are incomparable to what you may experience in the EU. For instance, if you would've held a rally there for your GC in the EU, you'd been kicked out the country next day!! Didn't you guys hear what happened to the Indian docs in the UK??

Even though the EU is a union, it's composed of diverse countries and cultures and mostly your mobility will be confined to a few english speaking countries. Bottomline is, EU is the option for LOSERS!

Zil
09-28-2007, 05:21 AM
Come on guys, stop comparing the US with the EU. Even though the $ is down a little bit due to the Subprime mess, it's only a temporary phenomenon and investors will be soon rushing into the US once confidence improves and $ will regain.

Apart from the $, EU is not the US and is no way near the US economy or the opportunities you can find here. The annual income is also less compared to what you can make here in the US and above all US is still the superpower in the world and the rights you get here even as an immigrant are incomparable to what you may experience in the EU. For instance, if you would've held a rally there for your GC in the EU, you'd been kicked out the country next day!! Didn't you guys hear what happened to the Indian docs in the UK??

Even though the EU is a union, it's composed of diverse countries and cultures and mostly your mobility will be confined to a few english speaking countries. Bottomline is, EU is the option for LOSERS!


You pretty much talk and think like an American. :)

andy garcia
09-28-2007, 09:21 AM
Which European countries are they from? Their opinion can be relevant in this context if they are from a rich EU country, but less convincing if they are from Albania, for example.

France and Sweden are OK for you.

nawlinspoboys
09-28-2007, 09:39 AM
Good writeup on your brother's experience in India. My brother went to India (for a visit) after 8 years in USA. What he found was great stuff and real bad stuff going on at the same time. Good stuff includes amazing money and prosperity coming to middle and lower middle class of India(ofcourse the poor are left out of all this and suffer). 10 years back middle and lower middle class kids were suffering and getting a manufacturing or civil job for 1000 Rs (after reference from a company insider). Now they get 30 or 40 thousand to begin with. Thats amazin. Downside is lots of cars, tremendous amount of pollution, congestion and same bureaucracy as before. The infrastucture is getting worse and no relief in sight. Also Indian professionals complain about long hours to support US clients. They have no normal family life. Most people stay in the offices till 10 in the night. So I guess it all depends on what each one of us wants. Returning to India is a good idea if you dont mind all the bad things. If you want to live a easy life stick to USA. Ofcourse you will need to diversify in career in coming years.

DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON EU..THEY SUCK A**!!!! TOO LIBERAL (AND RACIST) FOR THEIR OWN DEMISE!!

wait4ever
09-28-2007, 09:48 AM
I have worked in the EU for more than 6 years - it is a very tough place to work and live - I bet most people here wold not last very long in the EU environment - there is a clear segregation over there huge language issues, huge cultural barriers and serious acceptability hurdles.

All this blue card business is just talk - Germany had introduced a similar card sometime ago and there was a big rush to get those - after a year most of those cards went un utilized and finally Germany killed the scheme, guess what most folks who landed there had tough time getting stuff done and constantly faced huge social resistance.

Also building a permanent life in the EU similar to one that most folks are looking for here - is very difficult not mention expensive and forget about career advancement and all that stuff - every time you feel like getting some satisfaction - just fly down to Amsterdam - that is pretty much it.

The best option for those folks looking to get out of the GC loop is India - that is where the action is if you dont want to stay here.

Most people who say that EU is a great option are clueless about the real world.

"Rising Euro - Blue Card - Promising Opportunities in the EU" - what a laugh !

I would love to find out what is being smoked by folks who come up with these titles - it is probably the same stuff that is being smoked by people who are pushing the DREAM act !!

Let me hear about your opportunities when you are on a crowded S BAHN in uptown Munich and no one will sit next to you even though the train is packed - people would rather stand than sit on a vacant seat next to you.

Enough Said.

akhilmahajan
09-28-2007, 09:51 AM
At the end of the day, its comes to ones preferences.

The way i look at, after spending so many years in states, its just hard to pack and move. Over the period of time, we make friends, we have familes and above all we invest the best years of our lives.

Pros and cons will be everywhere.
India no doubt has changed a lot. One can debate about the pros and cons the whole day. I dont think money is a problem in india any more. The economy is growing like anything and will keep on growing. No doubt about it.

I am sure folks who have spent 7-8 years in this country and are still trying to settle down, will love every oppurtunity to settle down here. Because this country is like our home now. We have given it everything. We have made sincere efforts in helping the American economy grow.

Even if we move to other countries, there is no gurantee we will be treated good. We have to start from scratch, make friends, earn peoples respect and trust.

Sometimes i feel sad when people talk about leaving the country, to whom they have given everything.

I will like to ask everyone one question.
Why not give one good shot at trying to fix the broken Employement-Based green card system? What are we all scared off? We never did anything wrong, so why do we need to leave the country?

Folks think about it.

I am sorry if i offended anyone, but this is what i feel.

I believe in fixing things then running away from them. Thats my take.

GO IV GO
TOGETHER WE CAN

nawlinspoboys
09-28-2007, 10:39 AM
Well said Akhil. Its all about personal choice. But if you ask me USA rocks! I have lived in 6 states (south, north, midwest) in my 9 years of stay in USA..Never had a single problem with racism. All my bosses were fair and nice.... Even my university people were very friendly and accomodated me in their culture without hesitation. I see more racism and discrimination in India. We discriminate "big time" against our own back there. Plus back in India we have political unrest, communal tensions, riots, strikes..lot of uncertainities. Lets live in USA with pe@ce and make good life...

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 10:59 AM
The topic is to discuss the pros and cons. Thanks for all your excellent perspectives. Lets keep this discussion going.

It is very obvious that America is still the best place in the world.

300k green card petitions in July itself says how much people want to be here.

But when it comes to supporting our cause, many people just back out.

I do not want to deviate from the topic, but it will be great if people put their prespectives. So lets keep the discussion going

dressking
09-28-2007, 11:00 AM
While we are trying our best to fix a broken system and brace ourselves, lets take a look at what is happening in other parts of the world.

European Union is introducing a Blue Card that will allow you to work in any of the EU coountries

Euro value is rising against dollar

Opportunities will be on the rise with strengthening the currency.

Lets run this thread for sharing views, opinions, experiences and anything related to the EU

Maybe there are better laws there. But the people there are not fundamentally different. So I expect to have to face many of the same problems we are facing here. I have heard of a lot of anti-immigration sentiment and even laws in Europe.

After all it is White Americans who emigrated from Europe who are the majority here. And we are facing the most fierce resistance from them here. What do you expect of those who are native, not immigrants or of immigrant decent.

When they need you, they make it easy for you to move there to work for them. When they don't need you, they can kick you out or make life so miserable for you that you don't want to live there any more.

Just think of what the Germans did to Jews in WWII. WWII seems like a distant memory to us. But "there is nothing new under the sun". People are still people. Their genes have not been significantly modified. They will still have the same thoughts and emotion. Only those who are better educated can be somewhat different. But educated people are never in control of their societies.

I feel that the oppression from White Americans in America is enough for me to bare already. I don't want to risk moving into White people's native territory unless it is just temporary.

dressking
09-28-2007, 11:06 AM
At the end of the day, its comes to ones preferences.

The way i look at, after spending so many years in states, its just hard to pack and move. Over the period of time, we make friends, we have familes and above all we invest the best years of our lives.

Pros and cons will be everywhere.
India no doubt has changed a lot. One can debate about the pros and cons the whole day. I dont think money is a problem in india any more. The economy is growing like anything and will keep on growing. No doubt about it.

I am sure folks who have spent 7-8 years in this country and are still trying to settle down, will love every oppurtunity to settle down here. Because this country is like our home now. We have given it everything. We have made sincere efforts in helping the American economy grow.

Even if we move to other countries, there is no gurantee we will be treated good. We have to start from scratch, make friends, earn peoples respect and trust.

Sometimes i feel sad when people talk about leaving the country, to whom they have given everything.

I will like to ask everyone one question.
Why not give one good shot at trying to fix the broken Employement-Based green card system? What are we all scared off? We never did anything wrong, so why do we need to leave the country?

Folks think about it.

I am sorry if i offended anyone, but this is what i feel.

I believe in fixing things then running away from them. Thats my take.

GO IV GO
TOGETHER WE CAN

You have said what exactly what I want to say. I have built a business here and it is been around for eight years. My customers, products, services, connections, knowledge and experience, etc., etc. I can not move them with me. They are from this country and for this country only.

Libra
09-28-2007, 11:07 AM
ateast we have laws here to protect us from racism and hatred, i dont have personal experience but my cousin who lived 3 yrs in middle east and 2 yrs in europe and currently living in US says US is better than those countries to live.

so lets fix the system for us and live peacefully.

diptam
09-28-2007, 11:09 AM
We have given some our most energetic and productive years of life in this country. We paid taxes,we spent money here,we got set with the way of life and peoples here.

There is no question of running away. We got the skills,qualifications , attitude - we can settle anywhere we want - That's not an issue. Ther issue is that we should not run away from Problems. Otherwise where ever we go - we will have to moveout from there too in couple of years - who knows !!

At the end of the day, its comes to ones preferences.

The way i look at, after spending so many years in states, its just hard to pack and move. Over the period of time, we make friends, we have familes and above all we invest the best years of our lives.

Pros and cons will be everywhere.
India no doubt has changed a lot. One can debate about the pros and cons the whole day. I dont think money is a problem in india any more. The economy is growing like anything and will keep on growing. No doubt about it.

I am sure folks who have spent 7-8 years in this country and are still trying to settle down, will love every oppurtunity to settle down here. Because this country is like our home now. We have given it everything. We have made sincere efforts in helping the American economy grow.

Even if we move to other countries, there is no gurantee we will be treated good. We have to start from scratch, make friends, earn peoples respect and trust.

Sometimes i feel sad when people talk about leaving the country, to whom they have given everything.

I will like to ask everyone one question.
Why not give one good shot at trying to fix the broken Employement-Based green card system? What are we all scared off? We never did anything wrong, so why do we need to leave the country?

Folks think about it.

I am sorry if i offended anyone, but this is what i feel.

I believe in fixing things then running away from them. Thats my take.

GO IV GO
TOGETHER WE CAN

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 11:25 AM
Yes, thanks for all your comments, and I would only request everyone to participate more actively on IV stuff. Start building your state chapters, spread the message.

When IV was expecting 10000 people for the rally only 2000 + came. It is obvious that America needs us and we need America and we must all unite to make this a better place.

Jane - your points taken. But, it is not all about rasicm. In a cosmopolitan society, everyone is same. It is just the fact that the communities from the majority opposue us.

A good example is Ron Hira. He is 100% Indian immigrant. He has been one of the architects behind the Durbin Grassley provisions.

So many people who work against us are the recent green card holders. A good example of such people who lurk in our forums is Senthil1. He got his green card and wants to do as much damage as possible for future immigrants, so that he is always in demand and does not face competition.

Since 1970s Indians and Chinese have migrated as doctors and engineers and have been in top positions here. If you are trying to immigrate today - you are a direct competition to their children who are raised here with comforts, they are the ones who influence the govt with restrictive policies.

Recently Jay(logiclife) was on a radio station and the person interviewing jay was a radio jockey of Indian origin. He is definitely not the highly skilled types, and he was behaving exactly like Ron Hira types

dressking
09-28-2007, 12:19 PM
Well - though white racists may oppose - anything related to economy and development does go through.

I personally think that if this proposal goes through - EU will be the next melting pot.

Racism is there everywhere, we find it in US also, even in India, you find caste system and inter state racism. With rising opportunities, such things may not really be visible especially in places where there are free zones.

Does anyone has more info on this?

People are always prejudiced against something. If it is not race or ethnicity, it's country of origin, province of origin, class, gender, faith, or whether you are poor or rich. Even poor people have prejudices against rich people. And people tend to group with people who share their prejudice to fight against those who they are prejudiced against. It just makes life miserable for everybody.

But at least when the two groups who are against each other are about the same in size, you will feel less pressure. If you are among few foreign professionals working among a largely native population, you will feel a lot of pressure.

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 12:25 PM
People are always prejudiced against something. If it is not race or ethnicity, it's country of origin, province of origin, class, gender, faith, or whether you are poor or rich. Even poor people have prejudices against rich people. And people tend to group with people who share their prejudice to fight against those who they are prejudiced against. It just makes life miserable for everybody.

But at least when the two groups who are against each other are about the same is size, you will feel less pressure. If there are very few foreign professionals working among a largely native population, they will feel a lot of pressure.

And thats exactly what is happening to us here. All these politicians are providing mere lip service to us and play their vote bank politics.

This is very much a reason that we need to unite and rise. Our own people have prejudiced opinions among us, like fulltime jobs versus consulting companies. MS degree vs under grad, US educated vs non US educated, and it goes on - the more divided we are, the more issues we face because the community opposing us is higher in number and are voting public.

If we do not unite and still continue to do things in small numbers, things will not change easily.

nlssubbu
09-28-2007, 03:19 PM
Yes, thanks for all your comments, and I would only request everyone to participate more actively on IV stuff. Start building your state chapters, spread the message.

When IV was expecting 10000 people for the rally only 2000 + came. It is obvious that America needs us and we need America and we must all unite to make this a better place.

Jane - your points taken. But, it is not all about rasicm. In a cosmopolitan society, everyone is same. It is just the fact that the communities from the majority opposue us.

A good example is Ron Hira. He is 100% Indian immigrant. He has been one of the architects behind the Durbin Grassley provisions.

So many people who work against us are the recent green card holders. A good example of such people who lurk in our forums is Senthil1. He got his green card and wants to do as much damage as possible for future immigrants, so that he is always in demand and does not face competition.

Since 1970s Indians and Chinese have migrated as doctors and engineers and have been in top positions here. If you are trying to immigrate today - you are a direct competition to their children who are raised here with comforts, they are the ones who influence the govt with restrictive policies.

Recently Jay(logiclife) was on a radio station and the person interviewing jay was a radio jockey of Indian origin. He is definitely not the highly skilled types, and he was behaving exactly like Ron Hira types

Hi Chandu,

Not all GC holders are against the aspiring GC seekers. In fact, I am promoting IV actively to many older GC holders and exposing how bad the system is now when compared to their days. [Say from 10 years ago]. I am trying my best to help many, who are in line with what ever little knowledge I gained during this process. I will be happier one and only if this broken system is fixed and the process is made transparent. I only wish that this will happen during my life time :p

Thanks

PS: I did not had IV during the time when I started my GC process :mad:

kicca
09-28-2007, 03:21 PM
just found this interesting link about doing business in the world

http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/

it's on worldbank.org

Jaime
09-28-2007, 03:26 PM
It's true that Europe can be a tough place, as can Canada or the U.S. to a newcomer. What is true about Europe is that it is a socialist place, salaries are lower, taxes are higher, racism is stronger, houses are smaller, yet you are also surrounded by beautiful places and there is a lot to do and see. It depends what type of person you are. Some Europeans hate Europe themselves and want to come to the U.S. as much or more than you did when you immigrated here. I'd say Europe is a good Plan B if all else fails here in America for you, and then you can always go back to India or China if you didn't like Europe.

Hopefully we don't need to get sucked in by the Reverse Brain Drain and we can help Congress help us, by changing the law, and retaining the high-skilled legal immigrants like us who are suffering and stuck in backlogs, and which is the only fair thing to do!

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 03:33 PM
Hi Chandu,

Not all GC holders are against the aspiring GC seekers. In fact, I am promoting IV actively to many older GC holders and exposing how bad the system is now when compared to their days. [Say from 10 years ago]. I am trying my best to help many, who are in line with what ever little knowledge I gained during this process. I will be happier one and only if this broken system is fixed and the process is made transparent. I only wish that this will happen during my life time :p

Thanks

PS: I did not had IV during the time when I started my GC process :mad:

Sorry about the generalization. I was refering to Senthil1 kind of folks, not folks like you. Thanks for all the support. My friend got a green card as recently as a month back, he struggled for a long time before he got one, I asked him if he wants to come for the rally and he told me "MRRRRRRRR I GOT MY GREEN CARD, YOU ARE ASKING THE WRONG PERSON FOR THE RALLY" and the same person told me "SOMETHING MUST HAPPEN TO THESE ROTTEN CONSULTING COMPANIES, THEY ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM" he got his GC from a small consulting company and after getting his GC he says these companies must not exist - he wants to shut thee door behind him

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 03:36 PM
It's true that Europe can be a tough place, as can Canada or the U.S. to a newcomer. What is true about Europe is that it is a socialist place, salaries are lower, taxes are higher, racism is stronger, houses are smaller, yet you are also surrounded by beautiful places and there is a lot to do and see. It depends what type of person you are. Some Europeans hate Europe themselves and want to come to the U.S. as much or more than you did when you immigrated here. I'd say Europe is a good Plan B if all else fails here in America for you, and then you can always go back to India or China if you didn't like Europe.

Hopefully we don't need to get sucked in by the Reverse Brain Drain and we can help Congress help us, by changing the law, and retaining the high-skilled legal immigrants like us who are suffering and stuck in backlogs, and which is the only fair thing to do!

Jaime - you nailed it. People must concentrate on what they have to do. I started this thread for gettting a general perspective, because I seen articles about Blue Card and my dad also told me to look into it.

This thread has been very informative. Let folks keep blogging their prespectives

syzygy
09-28-2007, 03:40 PM
What can be more racist and unfair than USA as of today when hundred thousands of people who already gave their youth energy to innovation are being made to live hell like lives? I am sure many of us will find medical repercussions of what we are going through in few more years and then we can frame GC or AP or EAD or H1B extension and stare at it from hospital beds :) Cornyn / Durbin is all BS, they just don't want people to settle here, they just want slaves. Rest all are hurdles and policies to close any possible open door for deserving.

It's true that Europe can be a tough place, as can Canada or the U.S. to a newcomer. What is true about Europe is that it is a socialist place, salaries are lower, taxes are higher, racism is stronger, houses are smaller, yet you are also surrounded by beautiful places and there is a lot to do and see. It depends what type of person you are. Some Europeans hate Europe themselves and want to come to the U.S. as much or more than you did when you immigrated here. I'd say Europe is a good Plan B if all else fails here in America for you, and then you can always go back to India or China if you didn't like Europe.

Hopefully we don't need to get sucked in by the Reverse Brain Drain and we can help Congress help us, by changing the law, and retaining the high-skilled legal immigrants like us who are suffering and stuck in backlogs, and which is the only fair thing to do!

mundada
09-28-2007, 03:59 PM
Jaime - you nailed it. People must concentrate on what they have to do. I started this thread for gettting a general perspective, because I seen articles about Blue Card and my dad also told me to look into it.

This thread has been very informative. Let folks keep blogging their prespectives
Good point Jaime... currency strengthening has nothing to do with general career opportunities in that particular country. In short term it is because of interest rate differentials and in long run it is because of multiple factors primarily being inflation and trade balance. Therefore moving to Europe or India (best performing Asian currency this year) because of appreciating local currency does not mean anything as far as your career opportunities are concerned.

By the time you are settled in Europe (5-10 years), the currency rates may reverse because US would have started exporting more goods to Europe as US goods would be getting cheaper. Euro and dollar zones are mature market based currencies so we can say something about them.

However, same is not true for India largely because of intervention of RBI. However, look at Japanese currency, over 3 decades it has risen from 600 yen to 115 yen even after intervention of Japanese central bank. This is because of strength of exports from Japan. So it is possible that INR may end up somewhere near Rs. 8-15 if we go by PPP or somewhere in between depending upon trade balance and inflation. However recent reports suggest that Rs. 32-35 is breaking point and Indian software exports will become costlier than simply offshoring to Arkansas or Illinois. Therefore, most likely Indian govt. will step in and avoid dollar free fall against rupee.

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 04:36 PM
Good point Jaime... currency strengthening has nothing to do with general career opportunities in that particular country. In short term it is because of interest rate differentials and in long run it is because of multiple factors primarily being inflation and trade balance. Therefore moving to Europe or India (best performing Asian currency this year) because of appreciating local currency does not mean anything as far as your career opportunities are concerned.

By the time you are settled in Europe (5-10 years), the currency rates may reverse because US would have started exporting more goods to Europe as US goods would be getting cheaper. Euro and dollar zones are mature market based currencies so we can say something about them.

However, same is not true for India largely because of intervention of RBI. However, look at Japanese currency, over 3 decades it has risen from 600 yen to 115 yen even after intervention of Japanese central bank. This is because of strength of exports from Japan. So it is possible that INR may end up somewhere near Rs. 8-15 if we go by PPP or somewhere in between depending upon trade balance and inflation. However recent reports suggest that Rs. 32-35 is breaking point and Indian software exports will become costlier than simply offshoring to Arkansas or Illinois. Therefore, most likely Indian govt. will step in and avoid dollar free fall against rupee.

Very good analysis.

On another note people discuss about excessive war spending and lack of funding for technology and research and innovation and offcourse, lack of motivation to fix the legal immigration mess and protectionistic policy appproach as part of vote bank politics.

So we have two different perspectives here.

dressking
09-28-2007, 04:39 PM
Sorry about the generalization. I was refering to Senthil1 kind of folks, not folks like you. Thanks for all the support. My friend got a green card as recently as a month back, he struggled for a long time before he got one, I asked him if he wants to come for the rally and he told me "MRRRRRRRR I GOT MY GREEN CARD, YOU ARE ASKING THE WRONG PERSON FOR THE RALLY" and the same person told me "SOMETHING MUST HAPPEN TO THESE ROTTEN CONSULTING COMPANIES, THEY ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM" he got his GC from a small consulting company and after getting his GC he says these companies must not exist - he wants to shut thee door behind him

Those Asian Americans who are against new Asian immigrants, which include some of my relatives, sadly to tell you, are just helping White Americans in this fight. It is their wish and their passion. But if White Americans don't want it, they will have no chance of getting their voices heard. Not all White Americans are against immigration. But there is a big percentage of White Americans who are either fiercely against it or do not want it. I can hardly find any White American who says he or she wants more immigrants. And a small percentage of White Americans are fiercely against immigration. They would curse at anyone who they think is a new immigrant at any opportunity they have.

rama0083
09-28-2007, 04:47 PM
I have heard from people who have worked there that Socialism has eaten away at the insides of the European economy so much that they do not care if an immigrant helps them make more money. Unlike the capitalist US that accepts immigrants (at least to some extent) that bring economic benefit, the EU is one big xenophobic amalgamation of countries.
Well - though white racists may oppose - anything related to economy and development does go through.

I personally think that if this proposal goes through - EU will be the next melting pot.

Racism is there everywhere, we find it in US also, even in India, you find caste system and inter state racism. With rising opportunities, such things may not really be visible especially in places where there are free zones.

Does anyone has more info on this?

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Those Asian Americans who are against new Asian immigrants, which include some of my relatives, sadly to tell you, are just helping White Americans in this fight. It is their wish and their passion. But if White Americans don't want it, they will have no chance of getting their voice heard. Not all White Americans are against immigration. But there is a big percentage of White Americans who are either fiercely against it or do not want it. I can hardly find any White American who says they want more immigrants. And a small percentage of White Americans are fiercely against immigrations. They would curse at anyone who they think is a new immigrant at any opportunity they have.

Well, unfortunately they all vote and their votes are important to all the candidates. Even Senators like Obama, Hillary etc... are playing the same vote bank politics. They seem to be loving immigrants of different ethnicities, but not skilled immigrants waiting for green card - VERY SIMPLE EQUATION - NO VOTING POWER NO SUPPORT - and people like Durbin and Grassley go a step ahead and damage the entire industry and attack tech companies. They do all these just for the sake of votes.

Our only mistake is that we are in the queue, followed all rules, contribute to economy and we do not vote. They do not see anything else but votes. They are not controlling brain drain, not recognizing skills, tried to break their own rules during the July bulletin fiasco - why so much hatred towards us? Just because we are competitive?

Libra
09-28-2007, 05:19 PM
some of them are doing for votes and some of them doing it for show ratings, but racism and hatred is there in their blood. i dont think they change their stance on this. but if they continue provoking white americans against immigrants like this, one day we have to face same thing what black americans faced in 50's and 60's, and govt is fully ignoring this.

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 05:28 PM
some of them are doing for votes and some of them doing it for show ratings, but racism and hatred is there in their blood. i dont think they change their stance on this. but if they continue provoking white americans against immigrants like this, one day we have to face same thing what black americans faced in 50's and 60's, and govt is fully ignoring this.

Times are also changing - lets not say it is that bad. Offcourse I do agree it is difficult to change people's stance.

These days we have technological advances, competition, internet has revolutionized the world, globalization, more media outreach etc.... it is just a matter of time before things are put into perspective.

We find it difficult to even convince our own people to join hands for a cause and our own people work against us or do not cooperate, it has been evry diifficult to change minds of our own people, so imaginee someone whos perspectives are opposite from ours, do you think they will change their minds or stance?

There is no option but to help ourselves - I hope our community realises this.

angelfire76
09-28-2007, 05:33 PM
Having worked for short periods of time in Germany and Netherlands, I would say that they very much make you feel that you are a foreigner, you can never fit in and are most unwelcome in the country. What irked me is the attitude that they will take your money gladly but don't want you there.
In fact when I was looking for accomodation in Stuttgart the first thing the landlords asked me was "When are you going to leave?".
The US may have it's faults, but I've never been asked that question by property owners, only by consulate officers.
No thanks, I would rather move back to India than work as a third-class citizen in Europe. :mad:

Somebody said our own Asian migrants are against us. I can see their viewpoint. We are perceived to pose a threat to the well-being of their children and they do have a sense of entitlement just because they happened to come here earlier. Can't change that attitude. We can also see that in some people who haven't yet got their green cards or are newly minted resident "aliens". E.g. Entitlement due to Master's degree from US, Consultants vs FTE, Desi company consultants vs American company consultants etc. Did we ever stop and think that the system does not even need to play "Divide and Conquer" in a house already divided?

I frankly think that to an average joe in the US all of us are just another brown guy or chinaman etc. (apologies to the non Asian members of IV) and we don't need to feel that we are somehow superior to the other immigrant.

dagabaaj
09-28-2007, 05:39 PM
Politics is a dirty game and to win one must get hands into the mud to beat the heck out these guys. Durbin and Grassley are not the only ones. They are the most vocal ones. Why are we hurting? Because we have been silent for way too long. It is said that the crying baby gets the most milk. We do need to raise our voice. I think in another thread Mark pointed out that we can raise our voice but be civil about it and that is what differentiates us from the rest.

The point here is that, is the EU a greener pasture than the US?
IMHO, No. Language barrier is an issue. Newer countries that have been communist in the past are still struggling to keep up with their richer cousins. There are major racial differences since historically the countries have not been immigrant friendly. Econimically the gains are minimal.
The only plus is that one stands to grow with the growth of the countries themselves. On a personal level I think I missed th boat of growth in India and now it seems futile to attempt to jump ship which I have already done once by coming here.

dressking
09-28-2007, 06:13 PM
What irked me is the attitude that they will take your money gladly but don't want you there.


I have met a British guy here in New York who was like that. He loved the money, and always smiled to me for the money. But he never even want to lift a finger for the money he has been paid to do. And he despised me and was ashamed of having to talk to me because he was surrounded by some Southerners who were equally racist.

In fact, he even scammed me for money. And he was a businessman and now a CEO of a corporation.

chanduv23
09-28-2007, 06:18 PM
I have met a British guy here in New York who was like that. He loved the money, and always smiled to me for the money. But he never even want to lift a finger for the money he has been paid to do. And he despised me and was ashamed of having to talk to me because he was surrounded by some Southerners who were equally racist.

In fact, he even scammed me for money. And he was a businessman and now a CEO of a corporation.

This is a regular practice. This happens to everyone in their daily life. People tend to be nice to u and smile when you are paying money, but after that they let you know that they hate you for what you are.

dressking
09-28-2007, 06:34 PM
Entitlement due to Master's degree from US, Consultants vs FTE, Desi company consultants vs American company consultants etc.

I am one who has got a Master's degree in the US. I want to mention that because that I am proud of that. Just like Immigration Voice is stressing the fact that it is for legal immigrants only, not the illegal ones.

Anyone who has something to be proud of would want to mention it. Americans like to say "proud to be an American" for the same reason.

Besides, having finished a graduate degree program in the US is a big contribution to the US either financially or academically or both. Some of us have spent up to six years or more in graduate school in the US. You would want to get a Green Card after six years working full time, wouldn't you? Not to mention, working over time for six years as the case of most PhD candidates.

But the US educated have a big problem to face after graduation. That is when it comes to work that requires work experience, they are not as competitive as those who went straight to work and have got more work experience. They are only good in coming up with new patents and building new business models. The current immigration system favor those that have more work experience. So that is why the US educated are in a disadvantaged position.

Considering the fact that the US educated have contributed a lot to the US financially and/or academically before going to work, and are still in a disadvantaged position, we do need some special treatments.

Also, if the US educated are allowed to set up their own businesses earlier, it would be good for everybody.

We are not trying to compete with those who are not US educated for Green Cards. We are just trying to get the Green Cards we should have gotten for the contribution we have made. Our Green Cards should not be in the same categories as yours and should not take up your quota.

Have I made it clear?

Jaime
09-28-2007, 06:44 PM
Having worked for short periods of time in Germany and Netherlands, I would say that they very much make you feel that you are a foreigner, you can never fit in and are most unwelcome in the country. What irked me is the attitude that they will take your money gladly but don't want you there.
In fact when I was looking for accomodation in Stuttgart the first thing the landlords asked me was "When are you going to leave?".
The US may have it's faults, but I've never been asked that question by property owners, only by consulate officers.
No thanks, I would rather move back to India than work as a third-class citizen in Europe. :mad:

Somebody said our own Asian migrants are against us. I can see their viewpoint. We are perceived to pose a threat to the well-being of their children and they do have a sense of entitlement just because they happened to come here earlier. Can't change that attitude. We can also see that in some people who haven't yet got their green cards or are newly minted resident "aliens". E.g. Entitlement due to Master's degree from US, Consultants vs FTE, Desi company consultants vs American company consultants etc. Did we ever stop and think that the system does not even need to play "Divide and Conquer" in a house already divided?

I frankly think that to an average joe in the US all of us are just another brown guy or chinaman etc. (apologies to the non Asian members of IV) and we don't need to feel that we are somehow superior to the other immigrant.

Sorry that happened to you in Europe. About the U.S. Average Joe, I need to tell you my point of view. I've lived in the U.S. for more than half my life and I have come to know Americans. While many are the way you described, no two persons are alike, and there are many great people in this country who see us as individuals and love us for who we are. Stay away from the bad crowd and look for those good people. They are out there!

angelfire76
09-28-2007, 06:57 PM
I am one who has got a Master's degree in the US. I want to mention that because that I am proud of that. Just like Immigration Voice is stressing the fact that it is for legal immigrants only, not the illegal ones.

Anyone who has something to be proud of would want to mention it. Americans like to say "proud to be an American" for the same reason.

Besides, having finished a graduate degree program in the US is a big contribution to the US either financially and/or academically.

The most serious issue with the US educated is that when it comes to work that requires a lot of work experience, they are not as competitive as those who went straight to work and has got a lot more work experience. They are only good in coming up with new patents and building new business models. The current immigration system favor those that have more work experience. So that is why the US educated ones are in a disadvantaged position.

Considering the fact that the US educated have contributed a lot (some up to 6 years or more of their time) to the US financially and/or academically and still in a disadvantaged position, we do need some special treatments.

Have I made it clear?


I got a free ride through graduate school, so I should be ashamed that I didn't contribute financially and used tax payer money to convince my advisor to work on pet projects.Academically too they were more proof-of-concept type projects. :D That was a joke. Point taken. :)

Hmmm..no I would think that you still need BS+5 to qualify for EB2 while you only need BS+1.5 yrs to qualify for EB2. Where do you think the scale is tipped?
Also how fair is it that a new grad from college joins Microsoft, Intel (no majority of people who work there are not tech studs)etc. where GC sponsorship is a process versus somebody who doesn't have a Master's degree but great engineering skills honed by experience and works for a start-up. The immigration process is loaded against the startups in case you didn't know. I've seen too many real life scenarios of the above to be convinced otherwise.

But let's not beat a dead horse and invite the wrath of admins or senior members.

Jaime
09-28-2007, 07:11 PM
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070926/eu_immigration.html?.v=1

nlssubbu
09-28-2007, 07:20 PM
Sorry about the generalization. I was refering to Senthil1 kind of folks, not folks like you. Thanks for all the support. My friend got a green card as recently as a month back, he struggled for a long time before he got one, I asked him if he wants to come for the rally and he told me "MRRRRRRRR I GOT MY GREEN CARD, YOU ARE ASKING THE WRONG PERSON FOR THE RALLY" and the same person told me "SOMETHING MUST HAPPEN TO THESE ROTTEN CONSULTING COMPANIES, THEY ARE RUINING THE SYSTEM" he got his GC from a small consulting company and after getting his GC he says these companies must not exist - he wants to shut thee door behind him

These kind of people need to realise that they were in the same boat and just got across the shore. It does not mean that they should not help such people for a good cause. I hope that the current list of GC seekers do not fall in to such category in future. There are only a very few who lead by example and it is better to follow a good example. (That is why they are called leaders). I hope you can ignore these kind of people.

Thanks