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View Full Version : Solution:12 mill illegals,THINK like the President


sri1309
05-03-2010, 11:11 AM
All,
The only problem with CIR is with 12-20 million undocumented workers.
If the President says Yes to amnesty, the native and legal people will say NO to the president and his party.
If the President says NO to amnesty, then undoc workers and Latinos will say NO to the President and his party.

Same problem exists for Republicans also.

So what is the solution. They say, may be the guest worker program, or agJobs or things like that.
But all these will make everyone here legalized, and its like rewarding those who could jump the fence and punishing those who follow the rule on the other side of the fence.
And legal residents dont like this.

So, dear Smart brains,

Lets think if we can find some solution to this issue and suggest the policy makers.. THINK.. There is some solution out there, right.. which will be implemented in 2 months, or 6 or 1 year or 10, .. If we too think, its possible, solution comes faster, and so will CIR.
I seriously doubt if they put hurdles to legal applicants, but the problem is, its tied to this BILL, which people consider it as Amnesty bill, UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS bill, ILLEGAL ALIENS BIL etc.. thats how they are seeing it. So we must think this problem also now and see if some plan comes up.
What do you think, if you were the President.
The solution for the undocumented workers must satisfy everyone.

I'm sure IV can reward someone for an excellent idea. We will contribute.
May be I'll win.. let me think...

sanju_dba
05-03-2010, 11:22 AM
problem solved! make a seperate state , move them in , make it a ecosystem , and let them rule it .

h1b_forever
05-03-2010, 11:42 AM
I am withdrawing my comment. I dont think we should even joke about such things

problem solved! make a seperate state , move them in , make it a ecosystem , and let them rule it .

thomachan72
05-03-2010, 01:57 PM
I dont think anybody can start talking about legal status for undocumented people until and unless the borders are absolutely secure. Once the borders are secured then the policy of legalizing the ilegals might be debated.
Educating the masses regarding the benefits of immigration is a must. The general conept that immigration equates to job losses and wages decrease has to be addressed by those in the policy making bodies through the media.
Wages are obviously very high in the US to unsustainable level and that is why there is hardly any industry left here. Why then is the conern about declining wages? How can you encourage domestic production when the wages are prohibitive? The more you cut of immigration the more difficult it becomes to promote domestic manufactoring.
You have the baby boomers retiring soon and then the contributing population to SSN is going to decline. What happens then?
Now who will do this kind of education is still the question. :D:D:D

sanju_dba
05-03-2010, 02:22 PM
I dont think anybody can start talking about legal status for undocumented people until and unless the borders are absolutely secure. Once the borders are secured then the policy of legalizing the ilegals might be debated.
Educating the masses regarding the benefits of immigration is a must. The general conept that immigration equates to job losses and wages decrease has to be addressed by those in the policy making bodies through the media.
Wages are obviously very high in the US to unsustainable level and that is why there is hardly any industry left here. Why then is the conern about declining wages? How can you encourage domestic production when the wages are prohibitive? The more you cut of immigration the more difficult it becomes to promote domestic manufactoring.
You have the baby boomers retiring soon and then the contributing population to SSN is going to decline. What happens then?
Now who will do this kind of education is still the question. :D:D:D

thats mainstream thoughts !
anything out of the way ? :rolleyes:

vegasbaby
05-03-2010, 02:30 PM
I think securing borders is just another excuse that the politicians give to delay the immigration reforms.

All know that the majority of the illegal immigrants are not the ones that sneak into the US but rather those who entered the US legally but then they over stay. Some how, however the focus is always on people who sneak across the borders..

thomachan72
05-03-2010, 02:44 PM
I think securing borders is just another excuse that the politicians give to delay the immigration reforms.

All know that the majority of the illegal immigrants are not the ones that sneak into the US but rather those who entered the US legally but then they over stay. Some how, however the focus is always on people who sneak across the borders..

In nutshell this is a very serious and complicated issue and there is no perfect solution. Even if the senate takes up any bills to be discussed there is an extremely slim chance that it will move ahead any further. A massive all inclusive bill is not simple to debate and pass. They should be considering splitting this up into multiple bills (not amendments to one huge immigration reform bill).

h1b_forever
05-03-2010, 02:45 PM
If all everyone always talks about is how to stop illegal immigration, why don't they just do that than just sit and watch. Any action is better than inaction

Its almost impossible to stop people from sneaking across the border unless they stop businesses/people from hiring them.

It seems like everyone wants this "circus" to continue

ivgclive
05-03-2010, 02:47 PM
The only problem with CIR is with 12-20 million undocumented workers.
If the President says Yes to amnesty, the native and legal people will say NO to the president and his party.
If the President says NO to amnesty, then undoc workers and Latinos will say NO to the President and his party.

Same problem exists for Republicans also.

So what is the solution


If you look at your daily life, you may have few problems of the same kind. We may not solve the whole thing, but portion of it by finding a balance.

Being a ruler of the country is very difficult, and too when he wants to do one thing and all his countrymen are against.

CIR can not be done in one shot. Probably piece by piece. Filter the undocumented, give about few hundred thousand first, then add a million in one or two years, then one million, like that.

By the way, why are we talking about "undocumented" here, what about "documented" ?

soumeeram
05-03-2010, 02:53 PM
1. For Legal immigrants,
Follow the current system of checks and balances (Labor/I-140 etc) and grant them the green card upon merit. Providing relief to the backlogged community should be the only act required for these.
2. For Illegal immigrants:
a) Secure the borders before implementing any policy on them
b) Identify everyone of them by announcing some perks.. Like if you come forward to register you will get a SSN/some number etc
c) Put a timeline for all of them like 3 yrs to 5 yrs to work on a restricted wage limits and geographical limits (also to their employers just like H1-B). The intention here is to allow them to spread across the country than concentrating in one location and to allow some breathing time to the locals to march ahead of them in terms of job opportunities. For this period (of 3 or 5 yrs), these illegal immigrants can be given a pseudo green card. It means it is like GC, but with restrictions.
d) after that time period, their restricted GC becomes regular GC on par with legal's GC and have full rights to move anywhere in the country and to do any job that they like at any wage.
With this:
1. The politicians can claim that they are doing something to satisfy all the stake holders and there is a SOLUTION to the problem
2. The legals will get what they want after going thru all the pain in waiting for long periods for GC
3. The illegals will be brought into mainstream which will improve the economy because they will be responsible persons in the society by paying taxes and will have a normal life like legals
4. For locals, it doesnít sound like the government is giving amnesty to the illegals. Because locals are given sufficient time to move ahead of their competitors in the job market. and locals will feel that these illegals are getting some kind of punishment by these restrictions to get the legalization. at the same time if you think from the illegals standpoint, itís not the punishment but an opportunity to improve their life and legal status.

Hope I made some sense. All these are my views with no partiality towards anyone. I did not go deep into the murky politics but try to achieve the balance between different stakeholders, thinking everyone will agree to their own merits/demerits. And finally, all these should be done in good spirit, not leading to any racial profiling/dishonesty. REMEBER, any law is not good until it is interpreted and implemented correctly.

rb_248
05-03-2010, 03:36 PM
234

sri1309
05-03-2010, 03:59 PM
Lets see if something comes out.
Understand for sure, again for sure... not to keep any hopes on CIR, unless this is handled.
Do NOT raise your hopes looking at what we see on TV, or the rallies etc etc..
They all may force the situation to bring the CIR to the forefront.. We all may clap at that time too..
THINK what happens after that.. The Bill will just FAIL.. Think how broken we'll become.. So let that not happen.. Lets get the solution for illegals which they or the government may not have thought about.. Undertand the bottom line.. All must be satisfied with the solution reasonably, and we cannot make anyone fully satisfied.. a 60% workable solution may be ok too..

kondur_007
05-03-2010, 04:10 PM
1. For Legal immigrants,
Follow the current system of checks and balances (Labor/I-140 etc) and grant them the green card upon merit. Providing relief to the backlogged community should be the only act required for these.
2. For Illegal immigrants:
a) Secure the borders before implementing any policy on them
b) Identify everyone of them by announcing some perks.. Like if you come forward to register you will get a SSN/some number etc
c) Put a timeline for all of them like 3 yrs to 5 yrs to work on a restricted wage limits and geographical limits (also to their employers just like H1-B). The intention here is to allow them to spread across the country than concentrating in one location and to allow some breathing time to the locals to march ahead of them in terms of job opportunities. For this period (of 3 or 5 yrs), these illegal immigrants can be given a pseudo green card. It means it is like GC, but with restrictions.
d) after that time period, their restricted GC becomes regular GC on par with legal's GC and have full rights to move anywhere in the country and to do any job that they like at any wage.
With this:
1. The politicians can claim that they are doing something to satisfy all the stake holders and there is a SOLUTION to the problem
2. The legals will get what they want after going thru all the pain in waiting for long periods for GC
3. The illegals will be brought into mainstream which will improve the economy because they will be responsible persons in the society by paying taxes and will have a normal life like legals
4. For locals, it doesnít sound like the government is giving amnesty to the illegals. Because locals are given sufficient time to move ahead of their competitors in the job market. and locals will feel that these illegals are getting some kind of punishment by these restrictions to get the legalization. at the same time if you think from the illegals standpoint, itís not the punishment but an opportunity to improve their life and legal status.

Hope I made some sense. All these are my views with no partiality towards anyone. I did not go deep into the murky politics but try to achieve the balance between different stakeholders, thinking everyone will agree to their own merits/demerits. And finally, all these should be done in good spirit, not leading to any racial profiling/dishonesty. REMEBER, any law is not good until it is interpreted and implemented correctly.

If you read the "proposed draft" from Reid, Schumer, Gutierrez et al, you will realize that they have suggested exactly what you mentioned above.

The problem is, it has the first measure what you mentioned first: secure the borders and create a system whereby illegals can be caught quickly and removed. Now that is very difficult to achieve in the current system; let alone the cost of doing it.

This is exactly where last CIR got stuck and no agreement was achieved; it broke down saying that "secure the borders first and then we will talk about the rest". Nothing happened on that front due to political reasons.

Now we are back to one and saying the same things again.

I had a discussion with an "anti-amnesty" white person (just someone I know and think is fairly smart); and he stated following:

1. If you have neighbouring coutries from where people have lots of reasons to immigrate you have two options:
- secure your borders, have a mechanism so that no illegal can survive even a day and then there will be no issue with amnesty
- If you borders are not possible to secure and removal of illegals are very difficult; then you have no option but to "live with a balance of some illegals"; granted that they are not paying taxes, have troubles with their families etc; but you can not provide amnesty as you can make these 12 million legal, you will have another 12 million to deal with in just a few years. It does not solve the problem and burden of illegals will never go down.

2. Legal immigration based on person's merit is, on the other hand, very healthy and will lead to the progress of the country. Now someone may not like immigrants as their "doctors, laywers and engineers", but if your education systems is not capable lf producing them at a required rate, they are better to be here as "immigrants" than not. Same is true with any person who can do a job that would otherwise be "outsourced". On a long run, the healthiest solution for any country would be to have an education system to produce them locally; but until they we have to "let them in".

Now, I believe that this person's thoughts are shared by many (and possibly majority) of the citizens.

Unfortunate reality is that we do not have representation enough to "separate" our fate from that of illegals. It is very sad that we have to piggy back issue #2 with issue #1 above.

thomachan72
05-03-2010, 05:37 PM
Kondur,
I completely agree with what your "anti-amnesty" source stated. However, the main reason this issue has to be considered to some resolution is because kids are involved. Children who are either born here or migrate along with their parents ilegally are caught in between and have no place to go and no country of their own. This becomse even more painful when raids lead to seperation of the parents from the kids who are pretty much orphaned at this stage. This is the tragic situation which requires some sort of resolution. Otherwise the best way is as you suggested to tolerate the ilegals without making a big fuss of legalizing them. Anyway there is no simple solution. The policy makers can avoid this now but some day soon they will be forced to look at this issue right in the eye and face it. The Arizona law is just one of the signs that it is an issue that needs careful and immediate attention.

sri1309
05-03-2010, 06:07 PM
I am withdrawing my comment. I dont think we should even joke about such things

Good that you realized its a serious topic. You get a green from me for that..

It will get much more serious as things will soon go in the direction when it will hit headlines. We all will get much more excited.
BUT the anti-climax comes when it surely fails. I dont see one reason why this bill will pass. 12 mill legalization.. is absolutely NOT acceptable to any right minded American, or legal visa holder here. That too in current economy.
I am waiting for the CIR to happen and all of us be happy, but realistically speaking, it WILL fail in the current format. Let us not wait till then.
Either loose hope now, or think if something can be found. Talk to American colleagues to understand what they think is a good solution,. they are also watching AZ and rally news..

And as somebody was asking, why are we bothering about illegals.. it is because our issues are addressed in this bill, which is mostly considered Amnesty Bill. Thats what most Americans think, and do NOT want it to pass.

I really appreciate everybody for taking it serious. THANK YOU.
Like one other guy said " Think out of the box" .. See we are all getting serious now.

cbpds
05-03-2010, 06:24 PM
Best way is to implement the below points

1. Implement law to forbid employers to engage illegal workers and do audits/inspections

2. Allow 100,000 low wage workers per year based on low wage-Visa such as LW-1 with petition from the employer (just like H1)---This is will satisfy the need to perform low level work that Americans don't want to do

3.A lottery system to select 100,000 low wage workers from 12 million.

3.Create a low wage GC system based on 8 years of continuous W2

4.Remove per country limits to GC for legal immigrants, give GC based on 8 years of continuous employment

5.Allow legal immigrants to apply for EAD after 2 years of approved I 140.

The above steps will not anger illegals because there is a worker system, not give them complete amnesty to anger the citizens.

what do you think?

Green_Always
05-03-2010, 08:30 PM
12-20 million undocumented workers, considering most percentage is from Mexico, United States can extend TX, NM, AZ and CA further south to accomidate these many people.

This will be ideal proposal :-)

sri1309
05-03-2010, 10:57 PM
Best way is to implement the below points

1. Implement law to forbid employers to engage illegal workers and do audits/inspections

2. Allow 100,000 low wage workers per year based on low wage-Visa such as LW-1 with petition from the employer (just like H1)---This is will satisfy the need to perform low level work that Americans don't want to do

3.A lottery system to select 100,000 low wage workers from 12 million.

3.Create a low wage GC system based on 8 years of continuous W2

4.Remove per country limits to GC for legal immigrants, give GC based on 8 years of continuous employment

5.Allow legal immigrants to apply for EAD after 2 years of approved I 140.

The above steps will not anger illegals because there is a worker system, not give them complete amnesty to anger the citizens.

what do you think?

Some points look quite good towards a acceptable proposal from all sides.
Like clubbing points 2, 3, and remove 50,000 diversity lottery greencards.
Like based on requirement, take 200,000 on some kind of lottery system, and only for Mexico(they are talking abt this visa anyways). That's much better than 12 million. But what about 12 million minus this 200,000 lucky fellows. The question comes back to the same point. I dont think anyone wants to go back. But we MUST request to remove 50,000 free distribution of diversity GCs. I dont even think they know this.
What do u suggest for kids who were born here, or came here at 2-3 yrs of age or even older. They are like any Americans and know Mexico same as we do.

h1techSlave
05-03-2010, 11:12 PM
Thomachoy,

My response is just a comment on the hourly wage issue. I also thought that the hourly wages in the US is very high and that is the reason we lost out in the manufacturing industry. I told the same thing to one of my professors. His response, the US has a ranking of 14 in Automotive industry as far as wages go. And (according to him), we lost out, because the domestic Auto industry was manufacturing basically lemons for many decades.

Below are some links for thought.

US ranks 17 in Production worker wages. International Comparisons of Hourly Compensation Costs in Manufacturing, 2007 (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ichcc.nr0.htm)
(Table B. Hourly Compensation Costs of All Employees and Production Workers
in Manufacturing, 2007)

Us ranks 13 in this list: 2010 Report: Global manufacturing labor rates, trends and competitiveness | VentureOutsource.com (http://www.ventureoutsource.com/contract-manufacturing/trends-observations/2010-report-global-manufacturing-labor-rates-trends-and-competitiveness)

So don't just believe what ever the news media or the politicians says. Next, they will be telling us that India is a poor country because of our high population.


Wages are obviously very high in the US to unsustainable level and that is why there is hardly any industry left here.

h1techSlave
05-03-2010, 11:29 PM
1. If you have neighbouring coutries from where people have lots of reasons to immigrate you have two options:.

One of the solutions is to do some thing to reduce those 'reasons'. For example; why are Mexicans immigrating to the US? It is not like Mexico is a dirt poor country. Mexico's GDP per capita is a whopping $13,244 (Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico)). Compare that against India's per capita GDP of a minuscule $1,124. In other words an average Mexican is 12 times (it is not a typo) as rich as an average Indian.

Then why are they still coming here to do all kinds of low-wage jobs? I remember reading that the law and order situation in Mexico is in the toilet. Plus people have no work. It is not that difficult to connect the dots. No law --> no investment --> no work.

So the US can take $350 million out of the $700 million fence fund and help the Mexican government with law enforcement and build some factories and stuff like that. Lots of Americans themselves will get employment that way. Many of us would not mind managing a project team from Mexico, would we? Especially if the pay is not that bad.

sri1309
05-04-2010, 10:22 AM
One of the solutions is to do some thing to reduce those 'reasons'. For example; why are Mexicans immigrating to the US? It is not like Mexico is a dirt poor country. Mexico's GDP per capita is a whopping $13,244 (Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico)). Compare that against India's per capita GDP of a minuscule $1,124. In other words an average Mexican is 12 times (it is not a typo) as rich as an average Indian.

Then why are they still coming here to do all kinds of low-wage jobs? I remember reading that the law and order situation in Mexico is in the toilet. Plus people have no work. It is not that difficult to connect the dots. No law --> no investment --> no work.

So the US can take $350 million out of the $700 million fence fund and help the Mexican government with law enforcement and build some factories and stuff like that. Lots of Americans themselves will get employment that way. Many of us would not mind managing a project team from Mexico, would we? Especially if the pay is not that bad.

US or any country will not send that much money or even much more to raise standards in Mexico or other as a solution to this problem
And just for these reasons, I dont think anyONE will drop the idea of coming to America or going back.
Some of us do return back, but there are many who want to be here for things you cannot get back in developing countries. US standards are different and people will always want to come here.

Legal Latinos will be upset if undocs are not Citizenized. How about sending all Latinos and undocs everybody back to where they came from.. Problem solved :). No one will be there to complain.

Some poll done by NYT.
The following link is copied from the other post by Shaktisagar.. thanks..
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/us/04poll.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

cbpds
05-04-2010, 02:32 PM
Agreed diversity visas shd be scrapped, good point.

There are many cases where legal folks get their 485 denied after 10 years or H1 extension denied (due to some client letter prob) after 6 years, no one cares what happens to their 6 or 8 year old children when their parents go back home.

The kids retain their citizenship anyways, hence they can always come back when they are grown up just like any children of legal parents can do if they have gone back to their country

See people just sympathize with illegal immigrants for no reason, no one does for the legal folks who stand in the line for every small thing.


Some points look quite good towards a acceptable proposal from all sides.
Like clubbing points 2, 3, and remove 50,000 diversity lottery greencards.
Like based on requirement, take 200,000 on some kind of lottery system, and only for Mexico(they are talking abt this visa anyways). That's much better than 12 million. But what about 12 million minus this 200,000 lucky fellows. The question comes back to the same point. I dont think anyone wants to go back. But we MUST request to remove 50,000 free distribution of diversity GCs. I dont even think they know this.
What do u suggest for kids who were born here, or came here at 2-3 yrs of age or even older. They are like any Americans and know Mexico same as we do.

rb_248
05-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Legalize them and have them pay high taxes for 10 years after legalization, at which point they can apply for GC.

Let us see some math:

Assuming there are about 12-15 million of them
After legalization, let us say some leave and some don't and about 8 million work
Lets say on an average they make about $25,000
Lets say we make them pay 25 to 50% taxes = $12,500 (25 to 50% is really high for this income level)
Now, at 50% rate, 12,500 x 8,000,000 = 100,000,000,000 (100 Billion)
So in the next 10 years this will yield $1 Trillion (or a present value of $810 Billion with a discount rate of 5%)

And that solves the problem.

sri1309
05-04-2010, 04:19 PM
Legalize them and have them pay high taxes for 10 years after legalization, at which point they can apply for GC.

Let us see some math:

Assuming there are about 12-15 million of them
After legalization, let us say some leave and some don't and about 8 million work
Lets say on an average they make about $25,000
Lets say we make them pay 25 to 50% taxes = $12,500 (25 to 50% is really high for this income level)
Now, at 50% rate, 12,500 x 8,000,000 = 100,000,000,000 (100 Billion)
So in the next 10 years this will yield $1 Trillion (or a present value of $810 Billion with a discount rate of 5%)

And that solves the problem.

Legalize them and have them pay high taxes for 10 years after legalization, at which point they can apply for GC.

RB,
Excellent point and the calculation. Very good.. I think we're making good progress. I was thinking about this problem for so long, but never even got THIS idea. You just gotta green.. Keep it up.

THIS way, if I were illegal alien, I would not mind to pay more tax, and become legal resident. At this time I loose sleep when a guest knocks my neighbors door, I loose my peace when I hear or see a cop.. I am willing to pay more tax to get into this country. NO problem.
So this gives me an idea if I can check with illegal workers also, if this idea is acceptable, or what they think.

If I were an American Citizen ,
I know that its not very easy to send everyone back to Mexico. And I know at some point the government may try giving amnesty, or they pour in as undocs.
So I will FULLY accept to seal the border once for all and let them in, but pay more tax for next 10 years.
We can discuss with US Citizens what they think about this..

And If were a Latino, legal American, then I would still not mind, as I'd say atleast they are getting some justice and are paying for crossing illegally.

And what about those who followed rules and didnt come here.Well, We DONT need to satisfy everyone, and people did come here in ships to get citizenships in 1900s.. But that cannot work for ever.. Cant help..

Dems and Reps should also accept something in these lines..

What do others think on this idea,. and how can we refine this further.. Bad cops wake up. . Try to find faults, and refine it..
And think many more...

bikram_das_in
05-04-2010, 04:41 PM
Economic implications of CIR is evident. There are actually well researched numbers available in America's Voice and other websites that advocate for CIR. The real problem is that CIR is seen as amnesty and lot of people oppose amnesty. In reality CIR is the solution to the problem of illegal entry also.

Historically most American citizens opposed abolition of slavery in 1865 and civil rights movement in 1950s. Opposing what is rational and logical in not new. In fact Abraham Lincoln had to say that slavery is constitutionally right to win the presidential election. (He also said that slavery is morally wrong during his election campaign)

cbpds
05-04-2010, 04:55 PM
I agree but..........Unfortunately this will not pass in Congress as the main idea of passing CIR in Congress is to make a permanent voter base of 12 million for Dem or Rep party

Hispanics will be alarmed to pay 50% tax and they will say its not fair or racial or whatever.


Legalize them and have them pay high taxes for 10 years after legalization, at which point they can apply for GC.

RB,
Excellent point and the calculation. Very good.. I think we're making good progress. I was thinking about this problem for so long, but never even got THIS idea. You just gotta green.. Keep it up.

THIS way, if I were illegal alien, I would not mind to pay more tax, and become legal resident. At this time I loose sleep when a guest knocks my neighbors door, I loose my peace when I hear or see a cop.. I am willing to pay more tax to get into this country. NO problem.
So this gives me an idea if I can check with illegal workers also, if this idea is acceptable, or what they think.

If I were an American Citizen ,
I know that its not very easy to send everyone back to Mexico. And I know at some point the government may try giving amnesty, or they pour in as undocs.
So I will FULLY accept to seal the border once for all and let them in, but pay more tax for next 10 years.
We can discuss with US Citizens what they think about this..

And If were a Latino, legal American, then I would still not mind, as I'd say atleast they are getting some justice and are paying for crossing illegally.

And what about those who followed rules and didnt come here.Well, We DONT need to satisfy everyone, and people did come here in ships to get citizenships in 1900s.. But that cannot work for ever.. Cant help..

Dems and Reps should also accept something in these lines..

What do others think on this idea,. and how can we refine this further.. Bad cops wake up. . Try to find faults, and refine it..
And think many more...

kumar1305
05-04-2010, 05:00 PM
Legalize them and have them pay high taxes for 10 years after legalization, at which point they can apply for GC.

Let us see some math:

Assuming there are about 12-15 million of them
After legalization, let us say some leave and some don't and about 8 million work
Lets say on an average they make about $25,000
Lets say we make them pay 25 to 50% taxes = $12,500 (25 to 50% is really high for this income level)
Now, at 50% rate, 12,500 x 8,000,000 = 100,000,000,000 (100 Billion)
So in the next 10 years this will yield $1 Trillion (or a present value of $810 Billion with a discount rate of 5%)

And that solves the problem.


Okay I imagine myself as a illegal for a minute.

How much would these illegals ( mean unskilled) get paid per hour? $ 8?

Per day $8 * 8= 64
Per month 64* 21 days(excluding weekends)= $1344 (Gross)
per year $1344 * 12 months= $ 16128

If I pay $ 8000 as taxes what I'm I left with to feed my family? What is the cost of health insurance per month? About $1000(family) per month?

I can not think illegals paying 50% taxes, forget about illegals even if I'm asked to pay 50% taxes I will leave this country with in 4 months.

Any how politicians would not consider this. They will ask the illegals to pay a mere fine of 1000 or 2000 that's it.

rb_248
05-04-2010, 05:13 PM
Okay I imagine myself as a illegal for a minute.

How much would these illegals ( mean unskilled) get paid per hour? $ 8?

Per day $8 * 8= 64
Per month 64* 21 days(excluding weekends)= $1344 (Gross)
per year $1344 * 12 months= $ 16128

If I pay $ 8000 as taxes what I'm I left with to feed my family? What is the cost of health insurance per month? About $1000(family) per month?

I can not think illegals paying 50% taxes, forget about illegals even if I'm asked to pay 50% taxes I will leave this country with in 4 months.

Any how politicians would not consider this. They will ask the illegals to pay a mere fine of 1000 or 2000 that's it.

My assumption is that after legalization, illegals will start making more than minimum wages. So the average is $25,000.

Health care - That may be a flaw in my argument. Again I assumed universal health care will be perfected by then.

And 50% is the higher limit. Even if we start with 25%, we will end up with $500 BN. That is still a big number.

I agree but..........Unfortunately this will not pass in Congress as the main idea of passing CIR in Congress is to make a permanent voter base of 12 million for Dem or Rep party

Hispanics will be alarmed to pay 50% tax and they will say its not fair or racial or whatever.

Well, looking at Arizona, I think Taxing seems like a smaller pain. All it take is another republican state (NM or TX) to come up with an another demeaning law.

If congress fast track 12 million to citizenship, they will sure win 12 million votes (dems or repubs), but will also lose millions of votes from amnesty opposers. The key is to achieve a balance.

Keep the comments coming.....lets see if we can get anywhere.

h1techSlave
05-04-2010, 06:40 PM
US or any country will not send that much money or even much more to raise standards in Mexico or other as a solution to this problem
And just for these reasons, I dont think anyONE will drop the idea of coming to America or going back.


U.S. Foreign Aid Summary (http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm)

We do send a lot of money to foreign countries for various reasons. The $350 million (that is the total, not per annum) is loose change. In 2006 alone we gave away $20 billion.

sri1309
05-05-2010, 06:39 AM
U.S. Foreign Aid Summary (http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm)

We do send a lot of money to foreign countries for various reasons. The $350 million (that is the total, not per annum) is loose change. In 2006 alone we gave away $20 billion.



I agree and disagree with you. I did think about it, hence said "no aid for THIS problem". I dont think US will send any money to any country to stop illegal immigration here. Yes, they are sending money to X, Y, Z etc.. But this may not happen.

Fine for being legal immigrant:: How much are you willing to pay to premium process your greencard in 3rd stage (i-140 is already there for $1000).
I guess we are 500,000 legals with pending 485s. How much are YOU willing to pay to get the 485 cleared in, lets say 1 month. Before answering, think about what you spend on visa related expenses, travel, dependent cannot work situation, headaches, etc.. the list goes on.
From my end, I'd say, I can easily spend 5K for this, and if needed even 10K is worth.
Based on what next 10 respondents answer, we can have an idea of what 500K people will do., may be..
At 5K, its $2.5 billion and at 10K, its 5 billion.. no kidding. At $5K, I assume everybody says YES.


As per others comments:
Permanently loosing latino Voters : I dont agree. You will win both the votes. You are paving way for them to be legal, what else do they want.

50% tax : Its only on the very high end. The solution should be in those lines. Some number has to be arrived. And as RB said, they will easily make 25K per head and much more as situations demand. Somebody was calculating their working hrs at 8 per day and weekends off. Thats not right.. They work much more harder, and in the weekends also. You make probably 90K on average, and you work late hours and weekends.. Why will they not, if they make 18 or 20K as u said. Right.. Com'on agree with me.
They'll work hard and will also do an additional job which no undoc worker ever tried... learn english. :).

Money from visa renewals(we saw it work for legals :( ): Also they should be eligible for immediate greencard, after 8 years of working on visas. The time count can start only from the date taxes are filed (for the timestamp). Till then they can get continuous extensions of their workers visas at 2 or 3 year extensions.. Money will come in, from here too.

Also check the below link. They look at economics and returns before doing this for sure.

Dems: Immigration reform would help reduce deficit - TheHill.com (http://thehill.com/homenews/house/96063-dems-immigration-reform-would-help-reduce-deficit)

I think we're making some progress.
I see some negativity from some guys in other posts. Believe me, I strongly believe that the bill will go to the extreme end and then it WILL fail in current format.
With nothing changed, after 87 days, in AZ, the new law will create BIG problems. Undocs will suffocate in it, unless they make a big noise, which they will.
Please think about solutions.. and also how we can avoid a possible failure. Once we get good points, we can try communicate to policy makers with our ideas. Their biggest problems many times is their kursi, right.. They dont think abt our problems as much as we do. We should be worried about our kursi, and hence see if we can get some ideas.
We need better ideas.

sri1309
05-05-2010, 01:35 PM
^^^..

Guys please dont post useless topics, focus on useful posts only..
WE need more help on this....

biggy
05-05-2010, 02:16 PM
I notice that many of us have adopted the language used by those opposed to immigration in general. Phrases like securing the border, illegals, ... and so on.

As already mentioned by someone on this thread, "securing the border" is an endless exercise that cannot reach 100%. As a matter of fact, there is no country (maybe with exception of city states like Singapore) that has achieved absolute border security in terms of unwanted flow of immigrants. I would even go out on a limb to argue that no country has achieved even 70% rate.

Unauthorized flow of undocumented immigrants along the US southern border has drastically decreased in the last 10 years. For instance, the NYtimes reported that there was a 25% reduction between the 2008 and 2009 alone. There was more than 50% drop in the last five years

Even if the govt were to completely stem the flow of undocumented today, anti-immigrants zealots will turn their campaign against documented immigrants like H1-B visa holders and I can guarantee that.

The problem that is stoking fear and mass hysteria is that fact that a dominant group will, in less than 20 years, lose its majority status, which has over the centuries, has come with exclusive privileges

sri1309
05-05-2010, 07:29 PM
From today's immigration-law.com

05/05/2010: CIR Proponents in the House Prods Senate to Act Swiftly on CIR. House Immigration Subcommittee's Mark-Up of Rep. Gutierrez Pending CIR Bill Looming Up

* The CIR proponents in the House, including Hispanic Caucus and Madam Zoe Lofgren, Chairwoman of the House Judiciary Immigration Subcommitte, are reportedly losing patience with the Senate leaders' inaction and are seriously considering its initiatives in the House. Report indicates that Chairwoman Lofgren is considering mark-up of the Rep. Gutierrez CIR bill which was introduced quite some time back and has been stalled awaiting the Senate initiatives. There are a large number of Congressional districts that are vulnerable in the coming November national election because of the mounting anger and frustration in the Hispanic constituency. Please stay tuned to this website for the development of this news.

Other thread says Ombudsman needs ideas.. Please... OK, I'll give u $1000.00 for best idea.

sri1309
05-05-2010, 07:31 PM
Nice to read about Madam Zoe Lofgren. She really tried for us. She too needs ideas..

Below is From today's immigration-law.com.

05/05/2010: CIR Proponents in the House Prods Senate to Act Swiftly on CIR. House Immigration Subcommittee's Mark-Up of Rep. Gutierrez Pending CIR Bill Looming Up

* The CIR proponents in the House, including Hispanic Caucus and Madam Zoe Lofgren, Chairwoman of the House Judiciary Immigration Subcommitte, are reportedly losing patience with the Senate leaders' inaction and are seriously considering its initiatives in the House. Report indicates that Chairwoman Lofgren is considering mark-up of the Rep. Gutierrez CIR bill which was introduced quite some time back and has been stalled awaiting the Senate initiatives. There are a large number of Congressional districts that are vulnerable in the coming November national election because of the mounting anger and frustration in the Hispanic constituency. Please stay tuned to this website for the development of this news.

Other thread says Ombudsman needs ideas.. Please... OK, I'll give u $1000.00 for best idea that works.

ravi98
05-06-2010, 10:17 AM
Nice to read about Madam Zoe Lofgren. She really tried for us. She too needs ideas..

Below is From today's immigration-law.com.

05/05/2010: CIR Proponents in the House Prods Senate to Act Swiftly on CIR. House Immigration Subcommittee's Mark-Up of Rep. Gutierrez Pending CIR Bill Looming Up

* The CIR proponents in the House, including Hispanic Caucus and Madam Zoe Lofgren, Chairwoman of the House Judiciary Immigration Subcommitte, are reportedly losing patience with the Senate leaders' inaction and are seriously considering its initiatives in the House. Report indicates that Chairwoman Lofgren is considering mark-up of the Rep. Gutierrez CIR bill which was introduced quite some time back and has been stalled awaiting the Senate initiatives. There are a large number of Congressional districts that are vulnerable in the coming November national election because of the mounting anger and frustration in the Hispanic constituency. Please stay tuned to this website for the development of this news.

Other thread says Ombudsman needs ideas.. Please... OK, I'll give u $1000.00 for best idea that works.

;) awesome ........... at least now there is an incentive which will show immediate results:D

la6470
05-06-2010, 01:01 PM
Grant PR to anyone who is here legally for 10 years. Anyone who at this point of time is illegal will be allowed to register and their 10 year clock will start now. They can be given work permits for 10 years. Breaking the law will result in suspension of their work permit for a full year and face deportation.After six months of introduction of this law stop the registration of any new illegals. Anybody who is illegal has to then apply to the immigration court which will decide based on circumstances wether the illegal will be allowed to register or deport.

---- There is no denying the fact that USA population density is low compared to other countries and population growth and demographic changes are inevitable. The alternate of closed doors and border will mean the slow death of this nation's economy.
---- Unrestricted immigration and population growth cannot be sustained and will result in breakdown of the public facilities and other support systems.

The above law takes into account these two realities and even though it seems simple it puts certain controls in place which is dependent on number of years or residence, and this control (TIME itself) is not easy to mess around with.

sri1309
05-06-2010, 08:36 PM
Guys,

Minnesota is now introducing AZ type law according to immigration-law.com as below.
See, steam is building.
We need ideas.. Where are they???. OK take 3K, get us a good winning idea.
You didnt tell me how much u can pay to get 485 premium processed..
Angry with me.. pls dont.. be angry with the broken system.. and help it with ideas..

05/06/2010: H.F. 3830, Copy Cat of Arizona Immigration Law Introduced in the House in Minnesota Today

* It is deplorable that a legislator introduced this bill with the full knowledge that such bill would have no chance whatsoever in the State of Minnesota. This site will not entertain this type of bill and this posting will be our last report on this bill on this site.

vbkris77
05-06-2010, 09:31 PM
If this bill passes MN State, I will sell my house even for a loss and move somewhere else!!!.. But then the publicity is good, if 5-10 more states introduce this bill and start marking-up, then we will have CIR not in months, but in days..

Now coming to the best Idea, Make Mexico 52nd state (51 probably will be Puerto Rico)

If 40-50% of that country population wants to be in here, there is no reason for US to not make them part of their country.

In fact this is a favorite solution for most anti-immigrants also..

Guys,

Minnesota is now introducing AZ type law according to immigration-law.com as below.
See, steam is building.
We need ideas.. Where are they???. OK take 3K, get us a good winning idea.
You didnt tell me how much u can pay to get 485 premium processed..
Angry with me.. pls dont.. be angry with the broken system.. and help it with ideas..

05/06/2010: H.F. 3830, Copy Cat of Arizona Immigration Law Introduced in the House in Minnesota Today

* It is deplorable that a legislator introduced this bill with the full knowledge that such bill would have no chance whatsoever in the State of Minnesota. This site will not entertain this type of bill and this posting will be our last report on this bill on this site.