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View Full Version : Mocked by Fragomen For asking to port to EB2


lunar
08-15-2011, 09:49 AM
Little History
My priority Date is EB3 India Aug 2003. Graduated 4 yr College in India in 98 June. Came to US in 99. Joined Major firm in US in 2003 Jan ( 4 1/2 years total exp before joining the firm). Our firm was bought over by another major firm in 2006.
I moved to different team in 2007. The role/Job requirements were 80% different than when I started in 2003.

As suggested by my friends and folks on this forum - I have sent an email to my manager about starting another application in EB2. Manager, Senior manager, HR immediately approved the request since my job requires 5 yrs exp (+ no issue with Wages )

i forwarded the email to our Fragomen contact requesting them to start a new application in EB2.

Her immediate response was BAD
"The Mere possession of "MANY YEARS of Experience " does not qualify you for EB2. BLAH BLAH Blah ... Before joining the old firm in jan 2003 - you didn’t have 5 yr exp. Doesn’t matter if your current position is different from the one you joined in 2007. you cant use that experience. Hence I would recommend New EB2 application should not be started "

My question : Do we have link or any Document that I can use against Fragomen stating that "Since my current role (from 2007 ) is different from 2003 - I can use experience from 2003 to 2007 even if it is with the same firm.
Do I need to hire new lawyer to deal with Fragomen ?
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Contributed $100 .
Receipt ID: 5116-8138-6595-2887

Sunx_2004
08-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Interesting, I have the same question-
Under what circumstances experience earned with the same employer can be used for EB2 position??
Anyone??

Little History
My priority Date is EB3 India Aug 2003. Graduated 4 yr College in India in 98 June. Came to US in 99. Joined Major firm in US in 2003 Jan ( 4 1/2 years total exp before joining the firm). Our firm was bought over by another major firm in 2006.
I moved to different team in 2007. The role/Job requirements were 80% different than when I started in 2003.

As suggested by my friends and folks on this forum - I have sent an email to my manager about starting another application in EB2. Manager, Senior manager, HR immediately approved the request since my job requires 5 yrs exp (+ no issue with Wages )

i forwarded the email to our Fragomen contact requesting them to start a new application in EB2.

Her immediate response was BAD
"The Mere possession of "MANY YEARS of Experience " does not qualify you for EB2. BLAH BLAH Blah ... Before joining the old firm in jan 2003 - you didnít have 5 yr exp. Doesnít matter if your current position is different from the one you joined in 2007. you cant use that experience. Hence I would recommend New EB2 application should not be started "

My question : Do we have link or any Document that I can use against Fragomen stating that "Since my current role (from 2007 ) is different from 2003 - I can use experience from 2003 to 2007 even if it is with the same firm.
Do I need to hire new lawyer to deal with Fragomen ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contributed $100 .
Receipt ID: 5116-8138-6595-2887

NH123
08-15-2011, 10:21 AM
Don't ever listen to fragomen folks.They suck and are incompetent in their jobs.They delayed my process for 1.5 years for no reason and due to them i am stuck in this immigration mess(missed the 2007 boat too).After hearing lot of complaints from the employees , our company had closed their account with fragomen and hired a new lawyer.I would suggest take a second opinion from some good lawyer.Your case have strong credentials and i think you have hign chances of getting approved in EB2.

Cheran
08-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Before I start, I have been with Fragomen for over a decade without my Green Card, with that, one has to understand that Fragomen is just a immigration law firm not your employer. They don't do anything without your employer wish, they may recommend what to do but at the end of the day it's all your employer.
Do you really think that if your employer asks Fragomen to file EB2, they are gonna reject it? Come on, because of our relationship with our Manager and our company HR, we believe all they say and start blaming Law Firm, but at the end of the day it's your HR which makes the call.
Company's HR has a job to retain good employee, what ever it takes. The truth is all company see Green Card as a bond to hold you, they don't want you to get a Green Card. So they ask Law firm for advice and this is what you get.
You won't even believe things which went in my company (Fortune 100) which made sure i didn't get my Green Card, at the end of day Law firm blamed HR and the HR blamed the Law Firm.
Fragomen is just like any other Law Firm, they work for the company which pays them, in this case your employer. When you sponsor your Green Card, it would be a different ball game.
In the end, do not blame or fight with Fragomen, it's your employer. If you think they are truthful or if your have the guts, tell them you need EB2 period and give them an ultimatum. If your HR really wants you, you will get your EB2.

cleopatra
08-15-2011, 10:47 AM
Little History
My priority Date is EB3 India Aug 2003. Graduated 4 yr College in India in 98 June. Came to US in 99. Joined Major firm in US in 2003 Jan ( 4 1/2 years total exp before joining the firm). Our firm was bought over by another major firm in 2006.
I moved to different team in 2007. The role/Job requirements were 80% different than when I started in 2003.

As suggested by my friends and folks on this forum - I have sent an email to my manager about starting another application in EB2. Manager, Senior manager, HR immediately approved the request since my job requires 5 yrs exp (+ no issue with Wages )

i forwarded the email to our Fragomen contact requesting them to start a new application in EB2.

Her immediate response was BAD
"The Mere possession of "MANY YEARS of Experience " does not qualify you for EB2. BLAH BLAH Blah ... Before joining the old firm in jan 2003 - you didnít have 5 yr exp. Doesnít matter if your current position is different from the one you joined in 2007. you cant use that experience. Hence I would recommend New EB2 application should not be started "

My question : Do we have link or any Document that I can use against Fragomen stating that "Since my current role (from 2007 ) is different from 2003 - I can use experience from 2003 to 2007 even if it is with the same firm.
Do I need to hire new lawyer to deal with Fragomen ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Experience from current employer can be counted as long as the experience was in a substantially different job and the new job requires eb2 credentials.

For example, if you joined as a programmer analyst and later got promoted to project manager, your experience as programmer analyst can be counted as long as the new job is at least 50% different from the old one. If anyone says otherwise, get a new lawyer.

NH123
08-15-2011, 10:49 AM
Before I start, I have been with Fragomen for over a decade without my Green Card, with that, one has to understand that Fragomen is just a immigration law firm not your employer. They don't do anything without your employer wish, they may recommend what to do but at the end of the day it's all your employer.
Do you really think that if your employer asks Fragomen to file EB2, they are gonna reject it? Come on, because of our relationship with our Manager and our company HR, we believe all they say and start blaming Law Firm, but at the end of the day it's your HR which makes the call.
Company's HR has a job to retain good employee, what ever it takes. The truth is all company see Green Card as a bond to hold you, they don't want you to get a Green Card. So they ask Law firm for advice and this is what you get.
You won't even believe things which went in my company (Fortune 100) which made sure i didn't get my Green Card, at the end of day Law firm blamed HR and the HR blamed the Law Firm.
Fragomen is just like any other Law Firm, they work for the company which pays them, in this case your employer. When you sponsor your Green Card, it would be a different ball game.
In the end, do not blame or fight with Fragomen, it's your employer. If you think they are truthful or if your have the guts, tell them you need EB2 period and give them an ultimatum. If your HR really wants you, you will get your EB2.

I agree with what you are saying but to some extent.My company is also a fortune 100 company.Even though my Manager and company HR agreed, they drag the process for so long (1.5-2 years in our comapany) that does not make sense.Later i came to know they were charging hourly from our comapny and were interested in dollar amount only so it's in their interest to drag the process for long.That is why i was saysing to take second opinion.Usually big companies have 5-6 law firms and can transfer your case to different law firm if you can make a case which i did after my labor was daelayed my fragomen for no reason.

lunar
08-15-2011, 11:02 AM
Experience from current employer can be counted as long as the experience was in a substantially different job and the new job requires eb2 credentials.

For example, if you joined as a programmer analyst and later got promoted to project manager, your experience as programmer analyst can be counted as long as the new job is at least 50% different from the old one. If anyone says otherwise, get a new lawyer.

How do I prove the above is correct to Fragomen? do we have a document or link or something I can use ?

Status as of today :
My manager's response is "Our firm is willing to do this for you. but as lawyer suggested it may not be possible in your case. Please understand."

Cheran
08-15-2011, 11:03 AM
Fragomen Miami did it.

rdsingh79
08-15-2011, 11:30 AM
Technically, you can use experince from previous job with same employer for filing in EB2, if you job is atleast 50% different. However, just possesing the 5+ yrs experince is not enough to qualify for EB2. The employer have to to show that 5+ year or experince or advance degree is truly required for you to perform your duties. If your firm have another employee doing similar job, but have only 4yrs of exprince, how can you justify that your job need 5 yrs. Also if your firm have filed EB petitions for similar job under EB3 previously, but now they are filing under EB2, that might trigger a audit.

So in summary you can file under EB2, but chances of audit are higher and be ready to have solid responses to the audit questions..good luck!
How do I prove the above is correct to Fragomen? do we have a document or link or something I can use ?

Status as of today :
My manager's response is "Our firm is willing to do this for you. but as lawyer suggested it may not be possible in your case. Please understand."

thomachan72
08-15-2011, 11:38 AM
How do I prove the above is correct to Fragomen? do we have a document or link or something I can use ?

Status as of today :
My manager's response is "Our firm is willing to do this for you. but as lawyer suggested it may not be possible in your case. Please understand."

I think they might be trying to clear their reputation with the CIS. Didn't they have major issues previously?
Now regarding porting the major reason everybody is sceptical (particularly lawyers) about starting the new EB2 process is the likelyhood that the employer will try to shortcut the advt procedure (advt in places not likely to be seen by suitable candidates) since they are trying to retain the employee who is already trained and dont want to create problems incase other qualified person applies. They will have to invite them for interview and show reasons for rejecting them.

atlgc
08-15-2011, 11:39 AM
Interesting, I have the same question-
Under what circumstances experience earned with the same employer can be used for EB2 position??
Anyone??

yes , we can use.i did it

desi3933
08-15-2011, 12:34 PM
How do I prove the above is correct to Fragomen? do we have a document or link or something I can use ?

Status as of today :
My manager's response is "Our firm is willing to do this for you. but as lawyer suggested it may not be possible in your case. Please understand."

Check this url from Department of Labor (dol.gov)
Foreign Labor Certification (http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/faqsanswers.cfm)
Look under Alien Experience section.


Under what circumstances may the foreign worker use experience gained with the employer as qualifying experience?

If the foreign worker already is employed by the employer, the employer can not require U.S. applicants to possess training and/or experience beyond what the foreign worker possessed at the time of initial hire by the employer, including as a contract employee: (1) unless the foreign worker gained the experience while working for the employer in a position not substantially comparable to the position for which certification is sought; or (2) the employer can demonstrate that it is no longer feasible to train a worker to qualify for the position.

NOTE: A substantially comparable job or position means a job or position requiring performance of the same duties more than 50 percent of the time.



________________
Not a legal advice.

lunar
08-16-2011, 10:45 AM
Check this url from Department of Labor (dol.gov)
Foreign Labor Certification (http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/faqsanswers.cfm)
Look under Alien Experience section.




________________
Not a legal advice.

Thank you, above helps. I will reach out to Fragomen and see what they have to say about that ?

AllIzzWell
08-16-2011, 06:51 PM
The bottom line is Fragomen is a CHEAT! They will delay the process as much as possible added to already delays we are facing for getting GC. Even though the employer is willing to start the process, not many company managers and HR managers know about the process and thats were the "Blood Suckers" like Fragomen make their killing.

In my case, they took more than two years in just building the resume, leave alone filing PERM. Thats when all the hell broke loose, I lost the 2007 window and now am I still two years away from getting my EAD/GC. FYI, I ultimately had to leave the company and joined a small company that started my GC immediately (Labor filed 4th month from join date).

Infact my advise to the younger generation is before joining the Fortune 100 company check with the HR if the law firm is FRAGOMEN, If it is, then don't even bother to join the company. There is always better opportunity waiting and dont waste precious time covincing company manager, HR and FRAGOMEN.

krishmunn
08-16-2011, 09:40 PM
A friend of mine works for a giant company (FTE). When he moved from one office to another in same city Fragomen asked the company to get a new H1. This is absolutely not required. They are just minting money.

hsd31
08-17-2011, 11:05 AM
Agree with the other posts here. Fragomen is only interested in minting money. I and a few of my ex-colleagues have suffered for their greed too. Was working for a Fortune 100 company way back in early 2005 pre-PERM days. Hadn't started the GC process yet. All GC eligible candidates in my company got a mass email from Fragomen (Employers attorneys) saying that we need to start the GC process asap else after PERM goes into effect there will be huge delays in starting new GC applications. Like lambs to the slaughter we begged, pleaded with our managers to start the GC process and those that were successful (or unlucky) were herded by Fragomen as a bunch into the pre-PERM LC black hole. Fragomen did not bother about job requirements or candidate qualifications and filed everyone in the EB3 category saying that EB3 is the easiest way in before the door closes and people who qualify for EB2 can re-apply later. Of course once into the pre-PERM LC hole, our applications were moved from service center to service center to BEC's to who knows where. Some application were lost and god knows what happened to others. Fast forward to 2007, our LC applications were still in the BEC awaiting decision. Some folks who were lucky and couldn't apply during early 2005 (probation periods, etc) applied PERM in 2006 and got approved. And then one fine day in 2007, our Employer decided to close a bunch of sites and lay off people. Quite a few like me who were caught in the BEC hell lost their priority dates and god knows how many years. Not everything was Fragomens fault, but that experience has left with a bitter taste in my mouth and ever since I've felt strongly that a good immigration attorney on your side (or you Employers) can make or break a case (and maybe a few lives) at times.

a_paul1
08-17-2011, 12:27 PM
I have had some experience with Fragomen. There are a couple of things you might want to know -
1. Believe it or not but Immgration Law work is considered the lowest level of law work among lawyers. Lawyers who can't work in other cases (criminal, civil, torts etc), for whatever reasons, practice Immigration Law.

2. Fragomen is a big law firm and mostly their employees who handle Immigration cases are junior lawyers. They don't have as much experience as lawyers like Murthy or others.

3. Fragomen does not represent you. It represents the company. So their duty is torwards your company and not to you. So whenever there is even a little bit of conflict, they will side with the company. There is nothing you can do about it. So make sure your manager/company is with you.

Having said the above, what has worked for me (while dealing with Fragomen people) is staying firm and speaking with authority. Don't cow down. You can safely assume that they are not any better than you in terms of talent or intelligence. Only thing they have is more information than you, which you can get as well. So make sure you know what you are talking about and talk with authority. Have the balls (but have brain first!) to "Law says this and this is how it should be done.", "What you are suggesting is legal but is a not a wise thing to do".

I am not suggesting you to be rude because after all you are dealing with people like you and me. So be respectful while being forceful.

Of course, for this to work, you must must must know what you are talking about and are able to communicate over phone effectively. Read and understand the law before blabbering or you will lose your credibility.

They were fairly responsive for my concerns and I was able to have my way with them.