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nk2006
04-03-2007, 06:56 PM
?? A new bill in senate to reform H1B ???
I was just watching LuDobb's show on CNN and saw a clip on a proposed bill (being prepared by Sen.Durbin and another whose name I forgot) to revamp/reform H1B program. From the brief discussion, got the impression that the bill is more concentrated on controlling the h1B program with more checks and rules etc. Obviously Dobbs liked it - not sure if there are any other measures in that bill. Also not sure why another bill if CIR/STRIVE act is in works which is supposed to cover all immigration issues. Anyone else saw any related news elsewhere?

Also saw this article (sorry if its already discussed somewhere):
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/04/03/HNsenateh1bbill_1.html

senthil1
04-03-2007, 09:46 PM
What is the meaning of this?
The bill also includes a variety of other provisions, including one that would prohibit employers from hiring H-1B workers and then outsourcing them to other businesses and another that would require companies to pay prevailing wages to both H-1B and L-1 visa holders

Is that means Bodyshopping cannot be done by H1 or L1?



?? A new bill in senate to reform H1B ???
I was just watching LuDobb's show on CNN and saw a clip on a proposed bill (being prepared by Sen.Durbin and another whose name I forgot) to revamp/reform H1B program. From the brief discussion, got the impression that the bill is more concentrated on controlling the h1B program with more checks and rules etc. Obviously Dobbs liked it - not sure if there are any other measures in that bill. Also not sure why another bill if CIR/STRIVE act is in works which is supposed to cover all immigration issues. Anyone else saw any related news elsewhere?

Also saw this article (sorry if its already discussed somewhere):
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/04/03/HNsenateh1bbill_1.html

work4pd
04-03-2007, 11:11 PM
?? A new bill in senate to reform H1B ???
I was just watching LuDobb's show on CNN and saw a clip on a proposed bill (being prepared by Sen.Durbin and another whose name I forgot) to revamp/reform H1B program. From the brief discussion, got the impression that the bill is more concentrated on controlling the h1B program with more checks and rules etc. Obviously Dobbs liked it - not sure if there are any other measures in that bill. Also not sure why another bill if CIR/STRIVE act is in works which is supposed to cover all immigration issues. Anyone else saw any related news elsewhere?

Also saw this article (sorry if its already discussed somewhere):
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/04/03/HNsenateh1bbill_1.html

Here is another news link -

http://news.com.com/Senate+bill+gives+Americans+preference+for+tech+jo bs/2100-1014_3-6172981.html?tag=nefd.top

greencardfever2007
04-04-2007, 07:51 AM
I think this Bill will die like 2006 SKIL bill.

dohko
04-04-2007, 09:03 AM
I hope not. If they ban bodyshops the cap will never run out.
And people in Real companies will be able to get the visas.

gc_check
04-04-2007, 10:09 AM
I hope not. If they ban bodyshops the cap will never run out.
And people in Real companies will be able to get the visas.

Some of the US Companies, listed in NASDAQ / NYSE also provide human resource to Fortune 50 companies and they follow the LAW as requried. I do not think the provision that would prohibit employers from hiring H-1B workers and then outsourcing them to other businesses would be in this the bill, Atleast these businesses will lobby to take it out.

a_yaja
04-04-2007, 10:10 AM
I hope not. If they ban bodyshops the cap will never run out.
And people in Real companies will be able to get the visas.
There are many business models and you need to be aware of how each model works. There are a lot of companies, banks, insurance companies, even small and medium manufacturing companies that hire contractors for developing IT applications. They remain contractors for a reason - once the application has been developed - the contractors turn over the application to the company for maintenance and enhancements. A small percentage of contractors stay on and become permanant employees - but others move on. It would not be cost efficient for those companies to hire all developers as FTEs - the cost associated with benifits, taxes, 401K, etc are much more costly than having a contractor. Ofcourse, they can lay-off the employees after the project is completed - but what would that do to their reputation? Any company that follows a "hire-and-fire" policy cannot survive long.

Let me give you a simple real life analogy. Let us say that you have a decent family sized car that you and your family use on a daily basis. Then let us say you want to go on a vacation with your friends family. What would you do in this case? Would you go out and buy a mini-van? Or would you rent one?

chanduv23
04-04-2007, 10:11 AM
I hope not. If they ban bodyshops the cap will never run out.
And people in Real companies will be able to get the visas.

Actually it is difficult to ascertain to a level to determine if the h1b is filed by a body shop because right from Accenture, PWC to the smaller Cayotes all are offshoring and outsourcing, every company has its own product and inhouse development.

Most of American companies want a pool of talent available at time of need to choose from and these companies always maintain the supply at a premium.

A lot of people come through bodyshops and later move on to permanant jobs.

Something the differentiates research jobs, non IT jobs etc... and protect their interests and have some quota for tthem will be beneficial.

ItIsNotFunny
04-04-2007, 10:22 AM
I think this Bill will die like 2006 SKIL bill.


I don't think so. Here is my view:

I believe GC issue is root cause of the problem. Because people can not get GC for 6-7 years, employers (body-shoppers in real words) wants only H1 holder as they will work as slaves with them for years due to GC. This encourages them only to take H1B holders and not GC holders or citizens on payroll.

If government removes retrogression, immediately 80% of the body-shoppers (blood suckers in real words) have to close their shops and H1 quota will be available to all.

Common sense is not common.

manderson
04-04-2007, 10:23 AM
this is old news and has been posted about before!

vagish
04-04-2007, 11:22 AM
You will notice that there is not a single provision here that protects the rights of H1B workers and saves them from exploitation.

There is not a single provision to punish employers who exploit H1Bs.

Even with other immigration bills you will see there is not a single provision in these immigrtaion bills that punishes employers that hire illegal aliens. Thus all immigration laws being made never punish any US citizen breaking the law by employing an illegal alien or paying low salary or exploiting an H1B.

Even with the current law, have you seen how many employers have been punished for employing illegal aliens. Do you know the penalty for getting caught. It is a mere $500 and nothing else. And you will be surprised to know that not even 100 employers have been fined last year. And only 2 H1B employers were punished after being sued by employees. No H1B employer was caught and punished for exploiting any employee. The laws are being made to favor US employers and to punish immigrants.

I am surprised that nobody is noticing this.

the laws are there , but only on the books, they don't fund them for enforcement.
Also some laws are very week and needs to be changed.
I think general american public is getting to know more about it as everyday
passess with immigration debate. I think in the future if they pass any law
it will come with heavy enforcement and also the provisions like hiking h1B and
green card numbers, both will go hand in hand , there will be some controvercial provisions for both sides .

dvb123
04-04-2007, 11:31 AM
I think that there is little sympathy or need for the government to reform employment based immigration for IT people. I believe a lot of professors, researchers etc are stuck in EB2 category definately because very few people qualify for EB1. If IV collects a list of these people and then gets petitions from them I think there will be a good case to present to the Senators.

nixstor
04-04-2007, 11:34 AM
The truth is they already know that there are professors and research scientists who are in limbo. Its just unfortunate that every one has to ride the same boat. We need to call lawmakers to tell them how bad the situation is, contribute so that IV can reach the lawmakers through lobbying. If every one does the above two things, we will reach our goal faster.

h1techSlave
04-04-2007, 11:41 AM
I agree with the suggestion. As Murthy has written, the maximum effect is when individuals directly contact the senators and explain to them about the hard comings that we face. We could write to individual senators (e-mail would suffice) explaining about our predicament and the benefit to the American economy and people, if EB numbers are increased.

H1techSlave

nitlsu
04-04-2007, 12:16 PM
I don't think this bill would be of any consequence to the goal of IV unless they can maybe attach some GC-relief provisions to it.

In reality this bill will never ever make it to the full Senate floor. Corporate America will ensure that it dies the same kind of death as all the immigration related bills from last year.

vagish
04-04-2007, 12:21 PM
I don't think this bill would be of any consequence to the goal of IV unless they can maybe attach some GC-relief provisions to it.

In reality this bill will never ever make it to the full Senate floor. Corporate America will ensure that it dies the same kind of death as all the immigration related bills from last year.

I think it is true coporate america will not allow it to go through, but it is also true that any bill faverable to the H1B and or GC will also have the same death
as this one , do not underestimate the anti - immigration and unions clout
on democrats, if corporate america wants H1B increase it will come at a price,
more no free rides for corporate america as well.

that is the reason why we see stalemate for any kind of immigration bill, neither side is able to push anything.

thanks

senthil1
04-04-2007, 12:43 PM
It is true. But either Corporate America or Lawyers does not want to address the issues raised by Unions or anti immigrants. They want free ride and does not care about working class. No bold leadership in congress to address both sides issues. Congress members are siding with any one of two groups. Everyone knows that compromise will easily pass. But compromise will not give free ride to any group. Basically moderate H1b and GC increase with protection to US workers without wage pressurw will get most of the congress support. Even with illegal immigration also it is easy to pass if they give citizenship to existing people and allow more workers with complete protection to US workers without wage pressure will get most of congress support.

I think it is true coporate america will not allow it to go through, but it is also true that any bill faverable to the H1B and or GC will also have the same death
as this one , do not underestimate the anti - immigration and unions clout
on democrats, if corporate america wants H1B increase it will come at a price,
more no free rides for corporate america as well.

that is the reason why we see stalemate for any kind of immigration bill, neither side is able to push anything.

thanks

sumansk
04-04-2007, 12:52 PM
Hello Guys..
Here is the summary of the H-1 B reform bill introduced last week in Senate..

God Bless All of 'US' !!
http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=271783

Canadian_Dream
04-04-2007, 03:18 PM
The Durbin-Grassley bill would prohibit employers from hiring H-1B employees who are then outsourced to other companies. This is a method that some companies use to evade restrictions on hiring H-1Bs.

http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=271783

vagish
04-04-2007, 03:40 PM
It is true. But either Corporate America or Lawyers does not want to address the issues raised by Unions or anti immigrants. They want free ride and does not care about working class. No bold leadership in congress to address both sides issues. Congress members are siding with any one of two groups. Everyone knows that compromise will easily pass. But compromise will not give free ride to any group. Basically moderate H1b and GC increase with protection to US workers without wage pressurw will get most of the congress support. Even with illegal immigration also it is easy to pass if they give citizenship to existing people and allow more workers with complete protection to US workers without wage pressure will get most of congress support.
the reason why Mccain and kennedy partnership failed, because kennedy wanted to put the fair wage clause into the bill so that futurue employees can
atleast get the prevaling wages( it makes sense logically ), but republican Mccain didn't like it because they want employer to pay what ever they feel like,
if that happens you will see that in future the quota for low wage workers will also get filled in one day as we saw with H1B's yesterday, and then even 400000 for semiskilled workers would not be enough.

Iam not saying H1B get paid less, but there is lot of abuse going on,
1500000 application just on aptil 2 tell you a lot of things, no matter how much demand is there, it is outrageous.

when american people see that corporate america wants quota less h1B , they going to be on the streets just like illigals were last year.

thanks

vagish
04-04-2007, 03:51 PM
The Durbin-Grassley bill would prohibit employers from hiring H-1B employees who are then outsourced to other companies. This is a method that some companies use to evade restrictions on hiring H-1Bs.

http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=271783
only if the bill passes in its current form with no amendments, which highly unlikely.

shankar_thanu
04-04-2007, 03:53 PM
This bill would affect all of us if they apply these same rules when we try to exend or transfer out existing H1s. Does it(the bill) say anything about that?

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:01 PM
The Durbin-Grassley bill would prohibit employers from hiring H-1B employees who are then outsourced to other companies. This is a method that some companies use to evade restrictions on hiring H-1Bs.

http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=271783

Open your eyes and look clearly. This bill is designed to put an end to any competition for middle aged racist engineers afraid of competition from people who fit the profile of the membership of IV. Some members on the forum seem to think that this bill contain provisions to protect H-1b workers, but that is not true. This bill is designed to mean that current workers on H-1 are taking away American jobs as the protection proposed by the bill were not there when most of the forum members came on H1b. This bill was written by Ron Hira and IEEE. If nothing else then we need to understand that Ron Hira et al, are not in love with any of us. They represent middle aged racist engineers in US who are scared of competition and globalization. So please stop day dreaming and expecting that this bill would have anything to protect/benefit green card applicants. I understand/share the frustration with body-shoppers/consulting companies. Why whine about consulting companies and, work for them at the same time. If you are so good then why don't you switch jobs. Accenture, PWC, D&T, Bearing Point, Oracle consulting etc. also do consulting, what about them. Supporting this or any other bill from Sen. Grassley is suicidal. It’s acting like the 90% of ignorant Republican base, who earn less than 30K/yr and still support the party that oppose welfare reform and give tax breaks to the richest.

Taking out frustration on consulting companies doesn’t help us. If the green card process would work in the intended manner, none of us will be beholden to the employer. And there will be no room for frustration. Any employer would take advantage of such loopholes in the process where employee is beholden to the employer. But the thing is, employers or consulting companies did not create the currently broken green card process, neither did they create the backlog. The lawmakers, who did not attend to the immigration system for more than a decade, are responsible for the current system. And organizations like IEEE are responsible for opposing any meaningful reform on H1B/green card issues. Now they are using the situation to their advantage by tainting a pictures if we all the people in US, waiting for their green cards, should not have been in US if the system proposed by the bill was in place. And it is astonishing to see people calling to support a bill wihtout knowing its contents. So why blame our problems on consulting companies? You think IEEE drafted this bill for people who match the profile of IV members? This bill was has been drafted with the objective to secure the position of middle aged racist engineers, who do not want to upgrade their skills and who are scared of young minds ready to compete and learn new things.

vagish
04-04-2007, 04:03 PM
This bill would affect all of us if they apply these same rules when we try to exend or transfer out existing H1s. Does it(the bill) say anything about that?

sometimes they say don't wish, your wish might come true, we are fighting for retrogression thinking that it is the worst possible thing of our lifetime,
guess what if they pass a bill to reduce retrogression along with other provisions,
like the one's mentioned by Durbin's bill and then many would become ineligible for GC at the first place.
Once thing is sure, if the GC or H1B numbers are increased, it will come with some good enforcement measures and some other provisions which would tighten this whole process.
there won't be any free riders any more , many in america are becomming aware of this day by day.

thanks

johnifanx98
04-04-2007, 04:16 PM
Open your eyes and look clearly. This bill is designed to put an end to any competition for middle aged racist engineers afraid of competition from people who fit the profile of the membership of IV. Some members on the forum seem to think that this bill contain provisions to protect H-1b workers, but that is not true. This bill is designed to mean that current workers on H-1 are taking away American jobs as the protection proposed by the bill were not there when most of the forum members came on H1b. This bill was written by Ron Hira and IEEE. If nothing else then we need to understand that Ron Hira et al, are not in love with any of us. They represent middle aged racist engineers in US who are scared of competition and globalization. So please stop day dreaming and expecting that this bill would have anything to protect/benefit green card applicants. I understand/share the frustration with body-shoppers/consulting companies. Why whine about consulting companies and, work for them at the same time. If you are so good then why don't you switch jobs. Accenture, PWC, D&T, Bearing Point, Oracle consulting etc. also do consulting, what about them. Supporting this or any other bill from Sen. Grassley is suicidal. It’s acting like the 90% of ignorant Republican base, who earn less than 30K/yr and still support the party that oppose welfare reform and give tax breaks to the richest.

Taking out frustration on consulting companies doesn’t help us. If the green card process would work in the intended manner, none of us will be beholden to the employer. And there will be no room for frustration. Any employer would take advantage of such loopholes in the process where employee is beholden to the employer. But the thing is, employers or consulting companies did not create the currently broken green card process, neither did they create the backlog. The lawmakers, who did not attend to the immigration system for more than a decade, are responsible for the current system. And organizations like IEEE are responsible for opposing any meaningful reform on H1B/green card issues. Now they are using the situation to their advantage by tainting a pictures if we all the people in US, waiting for their green cards, should not have been in US if the system proposed by the bill was in place. And it is astonishing to see people calling to support a bill wihtout knowing its contents. So why blame our problems on consulting companies? You think IEEE drafted this bill for people who match the profile of IV members? This bill was has been drafted with the objective to secure the position of middle aged racist engineers, who do not want to upgrade their skills and who are scared of young minds ready to compete and learn new things.

I still believe this bill may help reshape current mad behavior of H1B application. IT IS ABUSED. Actually, this gives rep another excuse to anti-h1b-cap increasing. For whatever reason, ICC should be curbed.

senthil1
04-04-2007, 04:20 PM
Your argument may be true only some extent. If you keep on asking more H1b and GC without meaningful reform of H1b then it won't sell in the congress and they will try to keep staus quo and you have to wait years to get gc. How do you resolve the problem of Cap reached within few days? Will congress accept unlimited H1bs? What is the solution for this?

Open your eyes and look clearly. This bill is designed to put an end to any competition for middle aged racist engineers afraid of competition from people who fit the profile of the membership of IV. Some members on the forum seem to think that this bill contain provisions to protect H-1b workers, but that is not true. This bill is designed to mean that current workers on H-1 are taking away American jobs as the protection proposed by the bill were not there when most of the forum members came on H1b. This bill was written by Ron Hira and IEEE. If nothing else then we need to understand that Ron Hira et al, are not in love with any of us. They represent middle aged racist engineers in US who are scared of competition and globalization. So please stop day dreaming and expecting that this bill would have anything to protect/benefit green card applicants. I understand/share the frustration with body-shoppers/consulting companies. Why whine about consulting companies and, work for them at the same time. If you are so good then why don't you switch jobs. Accenture, PWC, D&T, Bearing Point, Oracle consulting etc. also do consulting, what about them. Supporting this or any other bill from Sen. Grassley is suicidal. It’s acting like the 90% of ignorant Republican base, who earn less than 30K/yr and still support the party that oppose welfare reform and give tax breaks to the richest.

Taking out frustration on consulting companies doesn’t help us. If the green card process would work in the intended manner, none of us will be beholden to the employer. And there will be no room for frustration. Any employer would take advantage of such loopholes in the process where employee is beholden to the employer. But the thing is, employers or consulting companies did not create the currently broken green card process, neither did they create the backlog. The lawmakers, who did not attend to the immigration system for more than a decade, are responsible for the current system. And organizations like IEEE are responsible for opposing any meaningful reform on H1B/green card issues. Now they are using the situation to their advantage by tainting a pictures if we all the people in US, waiting for their green cards, should not have been in US if the system proposed by the bill was in place. And it is astonishing to see people calling to support a bill wihtout knowing its contents. So why blame our problems on consulting companies? You think IEEE drafted this bill for people who match the profile of IV members? This bill was has been drafted with the objective to secure the position of middle aged racist engineers, who do not want to upgrade their skills and who are scared of young minds ready to compete and learn new things.

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:22 PM
I still believe this bill may help reshape current mad behavior of H1B application.


And how does "reshaping current mad behavior of H1B application" help fix green card backlog. Circulating debate around H-1b is the favorite trick of large IT companies. It is also the favorite trick of anti-green card reform groups like IEEE.

IT IS ABUSED. Actually, this gives rep another excuse to anti-h1b-cap increasing. For whatever reason, ICC should be curbed.

Just because the quota got over the first day it implies that the system is abused, right? Let me tell who is abused. People waiting for green card are abused. Not fixing green card delays and deliberately keeping the debate around H-1b is an abuse.

zeusjerry
04-04-2007, 04:25 PM
Your argument may be true only some extent. If you keep on asking more H1b and GC without meaningful reform of H1b then it won't sell in the congress and they will try to keep staus quo and you have to wait years to get gc. How do you resolve the problem of Cap reached within few days? Will congress accept unlimited H1bs? What is the solution for this?

Solution is :

1. Reform current H1B procedures so that it cannot be abused.
2. Make H1b cap market based.
3. Reform EB based GC process as suggested by Strive Act..


If only i was president !! :)..

rimzhim
04-04-2007, 04:29 PM
It is also the favorite trick of anti-green card reform groups like IEEE.
You are confused on this. IEEE is against increase of H1B visas. They have never said anything about GCs. If they have, show me where.


Just because the quota got over the first day it implies that the system is abused, right? Let me tell who is abused. People waiting for green card are abused. Not fixing green card delays and deliberately keeping the debate around H-1b is an abuse.

those who will feel abused are ones with advanced degrees from the US but did not get their H1B only to find someone from India has gotten an H1B. That person will feel abused because of the time (and maybe money) spent in getting the advanced degree.

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:30 PM
Your argument may be true only some extent. If you keep on asking more H1b and GC without meaningful reform of H1b then it won't sell in the congress and they will try to keep staus quo and you have to wait years to get gc. How do you resolve the problem of Cap reached within few days? Will congress accept unlimited H1bs? What is the solution for this?


Your posts seem to suggest that because we (collectively all of us on the forum) have not yet agreed to a “meaningful reform” of H-1b,that has prevented fixes to the green card process? Is that what has truly delayed fixing the current green card backlog?

Secondly, we do not have to choose between the one and the other i.e. we do not have to choose between supporting Durbin-Grassley bill and delay with the green card. Do you think that supporting Durbin-Grassley bill that contains absolutely nothing to fix green card delays will somehow speed up the green card process?

We (all of us when calling lawmakers) HAVE to differentiate between increase/decrease in H-1b and green card delays. H-1b is not our issue and we will be better of staying as far away from that issue as possible. If we have to call, then we should call in to support a bill that has our provisions, rather than a bill that has nothing for us or maybe stuff that would hurt us.

vagish
04-04-2007, 04:31 PM
Solution is :

1. Reform current H1B procedures so that it cannot be abused.
2. Make H1b cap market based.
3. Reform EB based GC process as suggested by Strive Act..


If only i was president !! :)..
keep dreaming ,
1) H1B based on market ( will never happen ) , how ever hiking it to some
rational number like 100K to 130K is a good possibility.

2) reform GC process so that after working for 5 years, with one company
one should be able to get green card without delay, this would be more
meanigful as it will demonstrate that the poners really has a full time job
as oppose to somebody just buying green card without ever
working for a company.

thanks

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:32 PM
keep dreaming ,
1) H1B based on market ( will never happen ) , how ever hiking it to some
rational number like 100K to 130K is a good possibility.

2) reform GC process so that after working for 5 years, with one company
one should be able to get green card without delay, this would be more
meanigful as it will demonstrate that the poners really has a full time job
as oppose to somebody just buying green card without ever
working for a company.

thanks

And why are we disucssing H1b increase/decrease issue again?????

senthil1
04-04-2007, 04:39 PM
If number of H1b increases obviously waiting period will increase for GC. So H1b reform will be positive in multiple aspects

1.It will satisfy anti immigrants and will give some kind of security to US citizens. There is no question that only new jobs that too no skilled worker is available in USA then only H1b should be hired. Even India we are rarely hiring foreigners in any company. Not only India any other country in the world does that(only when no personsare available they hire foreigners).
2.If no of H1b decreases automatically waiting period will reduce as no of people applying are less for gc .


And how does "reshaping current mad behavior of H1B application" help fix green card backlog. Circulating debate around H-1b is the favorite trick of large IT companies. It is also the favorite trick of anti-green card reform groups like IEEE.



Just because the quota got over the first day it implies that the system is abused, right? Let me tell who is abused. People waiting for green card are abused. Not fixing green card delays and deliberately keeping the debate around H-1b is an abuse.

njboy
04-04-2007, 04:41 PM
if this bill is signed into law...most desi consultant companies with one h4 aunty doing the accounting work + recruiting + administrative work will have to shut down

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:43 PM
You are confused on this. IEEE is against increase of H1B visas. They have never said anything about GCs. If they have, show me where.


That is a good question. And here is a reply to that.

Why does IEEE oppose H1? Because its members do not like competition from people whose profile match IV members i.e. people on H1B. If IEEE would be in love with green card and people waiting on green card, they would not support John Miano and his testimony. IEEE-USA's memberships consist of middle aged racist engineers who cannot keep up with the competition from mostly Asian younger workers. In the 80s and 90s, they were talking about globalization and its benefits as they got a jump start to get most of the global work. Now, other people in other nations have caught up and same globalization is causing them to pee in their pants. They understand that globalization is good for the country and the society. But what is good for the nation is not always good for each and every individual. So to save their lazy ass, they now want protection from their government, without realizing that if they get the protection they are seeking, they will not be able to enjoy that protection for very long as the companies will be compelled to look for more efficient and cost effective ways to do work.

Anyways, answer to your question is in your question i.e. How could someone be against H1b and for green card?

rimzhim
04-04-2007, 04:43 PM
if this bill is signed into law...most desi consultant companies with one h4 aunty doing the accounting work + recruiting + administrative work will have to shut down
:D

rimzhim
04-04-2007, 04:46 PM
That is a good question. And here is a reply to that.

Why does IEEE oppose H1? Because its members do not like competition from people whose profile match IV members i.e. people on H1B. If IEEE would be in love with green card and people waiting on green card, they would not support John Miano and his testimony. IEEE-USA's memberships consist of middle aged racist engineers who cannot keep up with the competition from mostly Asian younger workers. In the 80s and 90s, they were talking about globalization and its benefits as they got a jump start to get most of the global work. Now, other people in other nations have caught up and same globalization is causing them to pee in their pants. They understand that globalization is good for the country and the society. But what is good for the nation is not always good for each and every individual. So to save their lazy ass, they now want protection from their government, without realizing that if they get the protection they are seeking, they will not be able to enjoy that protection for very long as the companies will be compelled to look for more efficient and cost effective ways to do work.

Anyways, answer to your question is in your question i.e. How could someone be against H1b and for green card?
are you aware of the fact that IEEE actually lobbied to get a special quota of H1B for US-educated folks? these folks who fill this 20K quota are foreigners and by your logic will definitely be competing against these "racist" ppl. Because of the principled stand IEEE has taken, it continues to have clout.

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:47 PM
if this bill is signed into law...most desi consultant companies with one h4 aunty doing the accounting work + recruiting + administrative work will have to shut down

That is not the intent of the bill. The intent of this bill is to make H1 process so difficult that it will be almost impossible to file for someone's H1 application. IEEE has lobbied to reduce the H1 numbers for very long time. Now that they realized that H1 numbers are not likely to decrease, they want to make the H1 program so difficult/strict that, for all practical purposes, employers will not be able to hire someone on H1.

And, even if the bill would do that you have said, how would it help speed up the green card process?

johnifanx98
04-04-2007, 04:48 PM
You are confused on this. IEEE is against increase of H1B visas. They have never said anything about GCs. If they have, show me where.



those who will feel abused are ones with advanced degrees from the US but did not get their H1B only to find someone from India has gotten an H1B. That person will feel abused because of the time (and maybe money) spent in getting the advanced degree.

Yes. And this is not my definition. When H1B becomes a way to make money for those bodyshoppers, it's really abused.

And I agree that it's also a abuse if an employer pay under-prevailing to a US master. But based on current situation, it's not that obvious. I think many ICC are going too far.

sanju
04-04-2007, 04:49 PM
are you aware of the fact that IEEE actually lobbied to get a special quota of H1B for US-educated folks? these folks are foreigners and will definitely be competing against these "racist" ppl. Because of their principled stand, they continue to have clout.

So, only "US-educated folks" are entitled for H1? Is that what you are saying? And only that is a principled stand and rest everything is falsehood?

Canadian_Dream
04-04-2007, 04:51 PM
If you want a good discussion on a topic stop generalizing things and do not use rants like racist engineers etc. When you make an assumption please be clear about. You have assumed most people work for consulting companies and most people are frustrated with it. Not so. I don't work for them and I am not frustrated with them. My only concern with them is they are exploiting the system to their advantage and at my cost. This has two fold affect not only the take cut from your salary but also put a bad name to H1B visa program in general. Whoever wrote the bill or whatever are the consequences there is definitely some good things in that bill. Let me list out how some provisions are good:

1. If you are employable in US and you have the skills you will get the job with or without these middlemen. They come into picture only because they can start a corporation and then start the exploitation game. If a bill is taking these guys out what's wrong with it ? This will allow genuine corporations to hire the right candidates.

2. Putting 30 days of ad. to hire US citizens first ? What's wrong with it ? If their skills are really outdated and you are the best and the brightest you will get the job.

If you need more evidence of why H1B program needs reform look no further than H1B cap used up on first day. This has put good undue hard ship for good candidates while Infosys/Wipro etc will once again take the lion's share of H1B numbers. Why do you want them to win at your cost ? Stop calling people affected by this mess as "Racist Engineers". Try to put yourself in their shoes and some of these practices are affecting both the H1B visa holders (with indentured servitude) and citizens with wage depression. No body wins in the end but the people who are exploiting the system.


Open your eyes and look clearly. This bill is designed to put an end to any competition for middle aged racist engineers afraid of competition from people who fit the profile of the membership of IV. Some members on the forum seem to think that this bill contain provisions to protect H-1b workers, but that is not true. This bill is designed to mean that current workers on H-1 are taking away American jobs as the protection proposed by the bill were not there when most of the forum members came on H1b. This bill was written by Ron Hira and IEEE. If nothing else then we need to understand that Ron Hira et al, are not in love with any of us. They represent middle aged racist engineers in US who are scared of competition and globalization. So please stop day dreaming and expecting that this bill would have anything to protect/benefit green card applicants. I understand/share the frustration with body-shoppers/consulting companies. Why whine about consulting companies and, work for them at the same time. If you are so good then why don't you switch jobs. Accenture, PWC, D&T, Bearing Point, Oracle consulting etc. also do consulting, what about them. Supporting this or any other bill from Sen. Grassley is suicidal. It’s acting like the 90% of ignorant Republican base, who earn less than 30K/yr and still support the party that oppose welfare reform and give tax breaks to the richest.

Taking out frustration on consulting companies doesn’t help us. If the green card process would work in the intended manner, none of us will be beholden to the employer. And there will be no room for frustration. Any employer would take advantage of such loopholes in the process where employee is beholden to the employer. But the thing is, employers or consulting companies did not create the currently broken green card process, neither did they create the backlog. The lawmakers, who did not attend to the immigration system for more than a decade, are responsible for the current system. And organizations like IEEE are responsible for opposing any meaningful reform on H1B/green card issues. Now they are using the situation to their advantage by tainting a pictures if we all the people in US, waiting for their green cards, should not have been in US if the system proposed by the bill was in place. And it is astonishing to see people calling to support a bill wihtout knowing its contents. So why blame our problems on consulting companies? You think IEEE drafted this bill for people who match the profile of IV members? This bill was has been drafted with the objective to secure the position of middle aged racist engineers, who do not want to upgrade their skills and who are scared of young minds ready to compete and learn new things.

rimzhim
04-04-2007, 04:54 PM
So, only "US-educated folks" are entitled for H1? Is that what you are saying? And only that is a principled stand and rest everything is falsehood?
IEEE believes that ppl educated in the US should not be sent back and should actually stay here. I agree with that stance. After all, they want what is best for ppl born here and those who have been educated here. It is IEEE-USA :)

vagish
04-04-2007, 04:57 PM
If you want a good discussion on a topic stop generalizing things and do not use rants like racist engineers etc. When you make an assumption please be clear about. You have assumed most people work for consulting companies and most people are frustrated with it. Not so. I don't work for them and I am not frustrated with them. My only concern with them is they are exploiting the system to their advantage and at my cost. This has two fold affect not only the take cut from your salary but also put a bad name to H1B visa program in general. Whoever wrote the bill or whatever are the consequences there is definitely some good things in that bill. Let me list out how some provisions are good:

1. If you are employable in US and you have the skills you will get the job with or without these middlemen. They come into picture only because they can start a corporation and then start the exploitation game. If a bill is taking these guys out what's wrong with it ? This will allow genuine corporations to hire the right candidates.

2. Putting 30 days of ad. to hire US citizens first ? What's wrong with it ? If their skills are really outdated and you are the best and the brightest you will get the job.

If you need more evidence of why H1B program needs reform look no further than H1B cap used up on first day. This has put good undue hard ship for good candidates while Infosys/Wipro etc will once again take the lion's share of H1B numbers. Why do you want them to win at your cost ? Stop calling people affected by this mess as "Racist Engineers". Try to put yourself in their shoes and some of these practices are affecting both the H1B visa holders (with indentured servitude) and citizens with wage depression. No body wins in the end but the people who are exploiting the system.

completely agree.

rimzhim
04-04-2007, 05:04 PM
[From here (http://www.ieeeusa.org/policy/issues/).

Enacting legislation to facilitate the admission of foreign professionals with advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering and managerial fields as legal permanent residents.
[/LIST]
great to hear that!

also johnifax98: if middlepersons are exploiting the system, it will help to eliminate their role. i agree that is also abuse.

vagish
04-04-2007, 05:25 PM
04/04/2007: Senator Durbin and Senator Grassley Introduced H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act of 2007

* We reported earlier that these Senators were considering introduction of this foreign worker restriction bill in the Senate. Here we go. This bill was introduced in the Senate late last week. As seen in the summary of Senator Durbin, this bill proposes to apply to all the employers the restrictive portion of the current H-1B rule that applies only to the H-1B dependent employers. Together with the USCIS announcement of FY 2008 H-1B cap exhaution in one day, this legislative bill casts a dark shadow over the foreign worker immigration system. In a way, it is a frontal assault on the immigration of foreign professional workers. Please stay tuned to this web site for our summary of this nightmarish bill. Admittedly, the event in the last two days suggests that there is a room for potential abuse of the H-1B visa system under the current law and some level of change should be considered in one way or another. However, Senator's bill may not be a right way to correct the problems in the current system.


Even immigration-law.com admits there is a potential fraud going on ,read the last few lines.

thanks

quizzer
04-04-2007, 05:57 PM
On hindsight i belive this bill would help clean the H1B system currently abused by many bodyshops.

It would pit lot of controls on these numerous small time companies who just file H1B's on the first day..get people on bench and wait to place them in big companies for a huge money.

This leads to lot of people not getting a chance to filre H1B even though they have good offers from fortune 500 companies.

I feel we should give credit to these 2 for coming out with this bill.

Thanks

GCBy3000
04-04-2007, 05:58 PM
http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=22027

boldm28
04-05-2007, 10:14 AM
in my opinon its a supply demand market ..if some companies are exploting people who are consulting .. it has it shares of good things

1) no big company will generate a pay stub (just by payin u paying the taxes and being on bench)... which by the way is required to do things like renting or getting a credit card

2) not every big company does your GC .. this is from First hand exp .. a friend of mine worked for CISCO for 5 yrs at a very good sal but cause cisco was not able to file his labor he swtiched and now is making half of what he used to make at cisco . but again that is his call

3) Nobody put a gun to your head and asked you to come with an H1 body shop

i am just playing a devils advocate ....

pappu
04-05-2007, 12:52 PM
One more day to go before the end of this campaign.

Here is another incentive to make these call:

I will donate $ 5 to IV, for each member that makes these call from now on till end of the day tomorrow. I know, your hourly billing rates are way higher :) but this is what I can do for now.

I already called all the people on the list, it was easy. Office staff members were patient and friendly. Show me what you got!

http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?p=56064#post56064



Please join this campaign

sam2006
04-05-2007, 01:03 PM
I have done it also
response were good from the staff members

5$ per person who calls and posts his message here
i know all the consultants and IT are busy
please do it for a greater purpose in life

5$ per person from today-2morrow

rmscandy2006
04-08-2007, 11:11 AM
I think -We have to come to our senses. The law wants to treat us as slaves. Do the work and go back. They do not want to give the opportunity to have the american dream. They do not have problem with mexicans, or arabic country people, or anybody. All they want is - we do not want smart talented ones to take our white collar jobs.
We are screwed by our Desi employers, the law. We do it for $. So it is really upto us to choose from. Money or respect.
When I see fellow indians, at the age of 40, I feel pity. Most of us would see that they are in dilema as what to do. What they are doing is correct. They live a succumbed life.
Choose life !! is the better option !!

gsc999
04-08-2007, 12:02 PM
I think -We have to come to our senses. The law wants to treat us as slaves. Do the work and go back. They do not want to give the opportunity to have the american dream. They do not have problem with mexicans, or arabic country people, or anybody. All they want is - we do not want smart talented ones to take our white collar jobs.
We are screwed by our Desi employers, the law. We do it for $. So it is really upto us to choose from. Money or respect.
When I see fellow indians, at the age of 40, I feel pity. Most of us would see that they are in dilema as what to do. What they are doing is correct. They live a succumbed life.
Choose life !! is the better option !!
-------
yawn. Weak post. Just substitute "I" for wherever you use "We" start with "I have to come to my senses." Don't patronize and don't be condescending.

paskal
04-08-2007, 12:19 PM
If you want a good discussion on a topic stop generalizing things and do not use rants like racist engineers etc. When you make an assumption please be clear about. You have assumed most people work for consulting companies and most people are frustrated with it. Not so. I don't work for them and I am not frustrated with them. My only concern with them is they are exploiting the system to their advantage and at my cost. This has two fold affect not only the take cut from your salary but also put a bad name to H1B visa program in general. Whoever wrote the bill or whatever are the consequences there is definitely some good things in that bill. Let me list out how some provisions are good:

1. If you are employable in US and you have the skills you will get the job with or without these middlemen. They come into picture only because they can start a corporation and then start the exploitation game. If a bill is taking these guys out what's wrong with it ? This will allow genuine corporations to hire the right candidates.

2. Putting 30 days of ad. to hire US citizens first ? What's wrong with it ? If their skills are really outdated and you are the best and the brightest you will get the job.

If you need more evidence of why H1B program needs reform look no further than H1B cap used up on first day. This has put good undue hard ship for good candidates while Infosys/Wipro etc will once again take the lion's share of H1B numbers. Why do you want them to win at your cost ? Stop calling people affected by this mess as "Racist Engineers". Try to put yourself in their shoes and some of these practices are affecting both the H1B visa holders (with indentured servitude) and citizens with wage depression. No body wins in the end but the people who are exploiting the system.



on the face of it i largely agree, you are however misisng something important in my opinion. Look at the Lc process for Gc carefully. A company is required to advertise then employ any citizen with "minimum requirements" whether or not they are suitable or the best candidate. If the same were to be applied to the H1b- and to renewals, mind it, consider whether most H1B visa holders would be able to continue.
the fact that reform is needed does not mean this is the best way.
and btw i wonder what happens to true consulting companies- BCG, Oracle etc whose business is to provide these services. They are not some abusive offshore operation....how is it fair to them? Seems a bit radical to me...not that i oppose the need for reform.

quizzer
04-08-2007, 05:19 PM
I look at this bill in a different perspective:

1. This will give the Indian IT companies an opportunity to move up the value chain. Rather than body shop its employees to clients...they can have all the IT work done at its development locations. Also they can fill americans for half of its US workforce.

2. It will put an end to 100% H1b bodyshoppers who just make money without having any office and putting their employees onto client locations. These scrupulous bodyshops even dont pay on bench.

Thanks

priderock
04-10-2007, 05:12 PM
How about sending back all H1Bs ? If there is no cheap labor around , the salaries for all others (Citizens and GC holders) go up. I so want to see 250 an hour rates.

Applying your logic , you should get a job in your home country if you are smart enough.


If you want a good discussion on a topic stop generalizing things and do not use rants like racist engineers etc. When you make an assumption please be clear about. You have assumed most people work for consulting companies and most people are frustrated with it. Not so. I don't work for them and I am not frustrated with them. My only concern with them is they are exploiting the system to their advantage and at my cost. This has two fold affect not only the take cut from your salary but also put a bad name to H1B visa program in general. Whoever wrote the bill or whatever are the consequences there is definitely some good things in that bill. Let me list out how some provisions are good:

1. If you are employable in US and you have the skills you will get the job with or without these middlemen. They come into picture only because they can start a corporation and then start the exploitation game. If a bill is taking these guys out what's wrong with it ? This will allow genuine corporations to hire the right candidates.

2. Putting 30 days of ad. to hire US citizens first ? What's wrong with it ? If their skills are really outdated and you are the best and the brightest you will get the job.

If you need more evidence of why H1B program needs reform look no further than H1B cap used up on first day. This has put good undue hard ship for good candidates while Infosys/Wipro etc will once again take the lion's share of H1B numbers. Why do you want them to win at your cost ? Stop calling people affected by this mess as "Racist Engineers". Try to put yourself in their shoes and some of these practices are affecting both the H1B visa holders (with indentured servitude) and citizens with wage depression. No body wins in the end but the people who are exploiting the system.

satishku_2000
04-10-2007, 06:51 PM
IEEE believes that ppl educated in the US should not be sent back and should actually stay here. I agree with that stance. After all, they want what is best for ppl born here and those who have been educated here. It is IEEE-USA :)


As far as I know most of the "US educated foreigners"come here just to pursue thier higher education and have no intention of working here. Do they show their immigrant intent while applying for VISA and still get their student VISAs

Canadian_Dream
04-10-2007, 06:56 PM
the fact that reform is needed does not mean this is the best way.
and btw i wonder what happens to true consulting companies- BCG, Oracle etc whose business is to provide these services. They are not some abusive offshore operation....how is it fair to them? Seems a bit radical to me...not that i oppose the need for reform.

My only point was: the way H1B was set-up there was too much leverage to the corporations. This led to abuse by them at your and my cost. End result was wage depression, Green Card Backlogs and now H1B crisis. No matter how you argue it, the abusers have been a clear winner as an end result. Look no further than mushrooming of recruiting companies, and growing profit margins of TCS, Infosys and Wipro.
In the end the reform has to come, unfortunately it came again at our cost. I agree it is not the best way to reform it, because it isn't in the best interest of H1B holders, but I guess the intention here is to stop the abuse at any cost. The best way probably would have been making H1B independent of the employer but again me and you are not kept in mind when a law like this is being written. What happens to BCG, Oracle etc, perhaps law should provide a way to separate wheat from chaff. If you take a closer look at it, these corporations do provide consulting services but consultants are still "Permanent Employees" with a fix wages and benefits but body shoppers have a different model with unpaid bench period and what not. In fact you can find
Permanent Residents and US Citizens wanting to work or working with BCG, Oracle etc, but you don't see that with bodyshoppers and that's why I guess the 50% US Citizen clause in the proposed law. Please don't confuse this with the notion that I support or oppose this law. I am just trying to argue that if off shoring companies (Infosys, TCS etc) with 90% H1B's and local body shopping firms 100% H1B are getting punished I have no sympathy for them. These are the same people who refuse to give people copy I-140 approval notice and file for 59 Green Cards out of 20,000 H1B's they bring.


How about sending back all H1Bs ? If there is no cheap labor around , the salaries for all others (Citizens and GC holders) go up. I so want to see 250 an hour rates.
Applying your logic , you should get a job in your home country if you are smart enough.
You should first read the original post that I responded to understand the context. As far as wages are concerned it is because of these corporations that hourly rates however high look meager when H1B statistics are collected by DOL, because a large cut is added to profit margins. That's why opponents of H1B program can point finger and say prevailing wages are not market wages. Do you support this practice of making profit by eating away a huge chunk of your pay just because they sponsor H1B (a Green Card the retention benefit to continue doing this for atleast 3-4 years) ? If you are then you are doing it at your own peril.

Check out some of the prevailing wages and see for yourself if these are real market wages:

System Analyst in San Jose California $64K
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/content/032807_systmsanaly_sanfranciscoCA.pdf
Consultant in San Francisco 55K
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/content/032807_taxconsII_sanjoseCA.pdf

luckylavs
04-10-2007, 07:20 PM
Any idea//