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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 09:34 AM
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by maddipati1 View Post
dont want to judge ur sentiments, but think about this.

if GOD only cares abt people who constantly praises god, then muslim countries should do way way better they pray so many times a day. nobody follows religion and GOD like muslims do , not even hard core christians . even hindus pray a lot. US growth is clearly not due to the things u mentioned . its due to their relentless pursuit of growth. along with GOD US also believes in 'free will'. btw, i am not atheist, but just AGNOSTIC.
How can you judge God's intentions when you don't know Him? Can you prove that God does not exist?

Here are some facts from the American history about God's protection over this land:

During July/August 1776 the British sailed some 450 warships and support ships into the New York Harbor to quell the rebellion in the Colonies. These ships contained some 32,000 troops (British and Hessians) as well as 10,000 seamen. This was one or the largest armadas ever assembled in the New World. This awesome sight caused alarm among the citizens of New York and the 20,000 rag-tag citizen army gathered to defend their freedoms.

"And there had been an incident that deeply troubled the German soldiers. On a hot August night, just before they went into action, hundreds of British and Germans had sat around an enormous bonfire, laughing and cheering while four rebel leaders were burned in effigy. The figures of John Witherspoon, President of the College at Princeton, and ' Generals Washington, Israel Putman, and Charles Lee had just been set afire when a wild thunderstorm suddenly interrupted the fun."

'The soldiers dashed for whatever shelter they could find, and after the rain had passed, some of the men returned to the vicinity of the bonfire to discover that three of the dummies had been consumed by the flames but the effigy of George Washington remained intact, as good as it ever was. The symbolism was not lost on the foreigners; as a British deserter relayed the story, the incident caused a great deal of fear among the Hessian troops, most of whom are very superstitious."
Within twenty-four hours of the bonfire incident, an attack was launched against Washington and his troops on Long Island. The results of which gave the Hessians even more to ponder. The British naval forces attempted to sail up the Long Island sound where they would unload some of their forces and then launch an attack on land, placing Washington and his forces in a pincer trap. However for 24 hours they were unable to sail their ships up the sound because of high winds and waves. Not to be deterred by this they went ahead and launched their land forces and started their advance up Long Island confident that within several days "this ugly little conflict would be over." By dusk they had driven the Americans and beaten them to the point that the British Commander felt that, "On the morrow he would quickly and decisively end the conflict."

The British could hear the Americans digging their trenches and setting their camps since the prevailing wind was in their favor. However, later in the evening the winds reversed and allowed the Americans to hear the British. Then it started to rain and later that evening a dense fog settled over Long Island. (In August?) Washington had earlier recognized the potential dilemma and requested that boats be gathered in preparation for a retreat should it prove necessary. After the fog settled in, Washington's troops, animals and hardware were ferried across the sound to New York under the cover of the dense fog without being detected. This was done in spite of the fact that they were within shouting distance of the British and Hessians. Early the next morning the British started their advance, only to discover that the rebels had successfully moved out under cover of the fog and darkness. It is hard to imagine a more visible demonstration of Providence's hand than all the incidents surrounding this event.
(The Winter Soldiers, by Richard M. Ketchum, 1973, pp; 107-110)
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 02:42 PM
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Thats just too much bull for one day. Just when I thought that it was enough for 2008, you drop this bomb called "God's protection over this land" and made me read those illogical ideas. So this is what I have to say -

Can you prove the existance of God? Who is God? Where does he/she live?

You see, down the ages mankind have been told to think in a manner such that - anything that we cannot logically explain, we just come up with the rationale that "God did it". So for the things we can explain, we looks towards that knowledge, but for the things we cannot explain, we still try to explain to ourselves & others by saying - "God did this". And this is how the author is processing information, and this is everyone reading it will understand.

And this behavior is not a fault of anybody alive. We have inhereted these genes through thousands and millions of years. And those genes in us are designed to make us "blame or credit God" (whichever way you look at it) for everything we cannot explain. Now there will be some who will tell me that I am WRONG for saying "thousdand and millions of years" by arguing that Adam and Eve came just 2000 years back and earth was created in 6 days, and human beings were created some 2000 years old.

Human mind is extremely inferior. and for own inner sense of inferioirty, we want to tell everybody and our own ego that we know the reason for everything. And for the things we cannot explain, we explain such events to ourselves by using the argument "God is the reason behind those events". We cannot just accept "I don't know how/why it happened". Humans have to explain everything and a lot many times in a day, we explain events by telling ourselves - God did it.

One more thing, often times, unknowingly, we give more weightage to the writings from people who passed away as compared to the writings by folks who are still around. I think we should question everything told to us, everything feed to our brain - and we have that moral responsibility towards ourselves to question specially the things which are thrown at us with the message - "just accept it without qustioning", because religion and different version of the description of God cannot be questioned. It must be accepted the way it is.

I think that the greatness of America and its history is not because of the "Religion" or "God", but inspite of it. The fact that "Religion" or "God" is kept out of the Government is the only reason for the progress you see around. For millions of years religion was the center peice of every government, and so our ansestors lived in backwardness. Almost 99% of all inventions have been made in US, where State is "independent" of the "religion", although there are lot of nuts out there who wants to change this. As per the "religious folks" God will never protect a nation that intereferes with the work of religion, right? So why would "God" protect this land?

Anyways, I want to write for another 200 pages, but, I got to do this job and earn for my family, otherwise "God" will be angry with me.

.

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Originally Posted by lazycis View Post
How can you judge God's intentions when you don't know Him? Can you prove that God does not exist?

Here are some facts from the American history about God's protection over this land:
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- One Great man to another, 1814

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sanju View Post
Thats just too much bull for one day. Just when I thought that it was enough for 2008, you drop this bomb called "God's protection over this land" and made me read those illogical ideas. So this is what I have to say -

Can you prove the existance of God? Who is God? Where does he/she live?
I find your ideas illogical, but I respect your opinion. Those who seek God will find Him.

If you deny facts, however, the facts do not change because of your opinion. People once believed that the Earth is flat.
You cannot deny that the American nation was found by those who where seeking religious freedom. Also read biographies of G. Washington, A. Lincoln, J. Adams and other founding fathers. They were sincere believers. I cannot explain America's greatness by simple luck. The founding fathers started builidng from scratch about 300 hundred years ago, far behind Europe and Asia. Now the US is the richest country in the world, despite the fact that it's neither the biggest nor the most populous.

As for your questions, I cannot prove that God exist, just like you cannot prove that He does not. Either way, it's a belief. I chose to believe in God.
God is the omnipresent, omni powerful spirit who fills the universe. If you want to know more, just ask.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 03:30 PM
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I find your ideas illogical, but I respect your opinion. Those who seek God will find Him.

If you deny facts, however, the facts do not change because of your opinion. People once believed that the Earth is flat.
You cannot deny that the American nation was found by those who where seeking religious freedom. Also read biographies of G. Washington, A. Lincoln, J. Adams and other founding fathers. They were sincere believers. I cannot explain America's greatness by simple luck. The founding fathers started builidng from scratch about 300 hundred years ago, far behind Europe and Asia. Now the US is the richest country in the world, despite the fact that it's neither the biggest nor the most populous.

As for your questions, I cannot prove that God exist, just like you cannot prove that He does not. Either way, it's a belief. I chose to believe in God.
God is the omnipresent, omni powerful spirit who fills the universe. If you want to know more, just ask.
The question isn't whether God exists, the question is, how probable is God's existence and since it is extremely improbable, it would be a mistake to assume his existence. Read Dawkins for more information.

Also, your revolutionary war anecdote appears to suggest that God is American. Why is the rest of the world worshiping him then?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 03:33 PM
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"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is."
Blaise Pascal

The chance is 50/50.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lazycis View Post
"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is."
Blaise Pascal

The chance is 50/50.
Seriously, did you just bring up Pascal's wager? You seem to be behind the times, man. Pascal's wager has been knocked down and ridiculed time and time again. Just one of its refutations : Why God? Why not believe in a pink unicorn? or a flying spaghetti monster? Or a giant cosmic turtle? Shouldn't one believe in each and every one of these things for the fear that they might be true since no one can really disprove their existence? Again it comes down to probability. The probability of there being a God is very close to zero, thus making belief in God untenable.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:05 PM
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How can you judge God's intentions when you don't know Him? Can you prove that God does not exist?
I prayed god to get my GC before 2008.If God really exists I'll get my GC in 2008.If not it's a proof that God doesn't exists.

I'll have to wait for few more hours to prove.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:17 PM
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Default How Simple is the Test

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Originally Posted by javadeveloper View Post
I prayed god to get my GC before 2008.If God really exists I'll get my GC in 2008.If not it's a proof that God doesn't exists.

I'll have to wait for few more hours to prove.
How Simple is the Test ..for the existence of God...Why GC you can do some easy tests too like
  1. Throw a glass Jar from 10th Floor of builing to the hard ground and if Glass JAR does not break then God exists other wise not
  2. You can apply for job and don't appear for interview and if you still get a job then god exists otherwise not
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lazycis View Post
How can you judge God's intentions when you don't know Him? Can you prove that God does not exist?
a 20 year old girl had injuries because of acid attack on her and she was in hospital praying god to save her life.But she died finally(http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/01/stor...0150460100.htm).

If god exists , he/she should listen the prayers and save people.

This is just one example.There are millions of incidents which proves that GOD doesn't exist.

It's just out belief that GOD will do some good for us.

problem is that if we believe in GOD , we'll start living with false hopes.

No Hope is better than false HOPE
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by skd View Post
How Simple is the Test ..for the existence of God...Why GC you can do some easy tests too like
  1. Throw a glass Jar from 10th Floor of builing to the hard ground and if Glass JAR does not break then God exists other wise not
  2. You can apply for job and don't appear for interview and if you still get a job then god exists otherwise not
I know/agree that my initial post is silly.but how about the later post
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:41 PM
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Default Amazing way to argue..

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Originally Posted by javadeveloper View Post
a 20 year old girl had injuries because of acid attack on her and she was in hospital praying god to save her life.But she died finally(http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/01/stor...0150460100.htm).

If god exists , he/she should listen the prayers and save people.

This is just one example.There are millions of incidents which proves that GOD doesn't exist.

It's just out belief that GOD will do some good for us.

problem is that if we believe in GOD , we'll start living with false hopes.

No Hope is better than false HOPE
If that's you criteria for judging the existence of God..I am amazed..
With One anomaly you decided on his existence...When there are gazillions of his amazing creations that no human can create. Human himself being one, We should be thankful for his blessing
Thankful that we get more than what we need to eat, Ask a starving kids in Darfur.
Thankful for Eyes he has given to See, As blind man
Thankful for Limbs, Ask people who lost that.
And Millions of other things that he blessed you with
And you want to compare all this with GC (green color piece of Paper)
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:41 PM
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Thanks lazycis, I mean no disrespect to anyone, just that I find it very difficult to understand some of the ways we all respond towards the events we don't understand. We all simply blame it on God.

And this is the oldest trick in the book of "religious folks". As soon as you question about the twisted belief like "God's protection over this land", some "protecter of God" will throw at you, "people who beleiev in God, will find him". The question is not whether the God exists or not, the question is,
"God's protection over this land"? When we are all children of God, then why would God only protect "only this land". Why not protect other lands where other children of God lives. I think that "God's protection over this land" is a thought from a very inferior mind.

And I find no difference between between "child of God" and "son of God". We are all Sons and Daughters of God, although different religions wants us to believe that their masiah is the "ONLY SON" or "ONLY MESSENGER" of God. And that just too much baloney.

Just like you, I too believe in the existance of God, however, my version of God is not sitting on a lion or a monkey shaped human or tied to a cross or telling us to kill non-believers to go to haven with 72 virgins. I think thats just too pipsqueak depiction of God. I trust that the God is present everywhere but its not what have been described to us by any of the organized religions. And everytime someone throws out some text, like the one Richard Ketchum, I am complelled to voice that its a twisted thought process, which often emanates from the twisted belief system of some organized religion.

Also, Jeffersion, Adams, Franklin and other founding fathers of this nation were all extremely learned because they were all knowledgedable enough to keep the "religion" out of government. Because they knew that most men cannot distinguish between right and wrong when it comes to God, and too often organized religion blinds us by asking us not to question anything.

I think you are scared to think that your existance is merely by chance. Thats why, for the things that are too big for us to comprehend, we want to think that there must be a "hand of God", just like that goal scored by Maradona in the finals of the world cup soccor. You are scared to think that if this all happened by chance, then it could also get destroyed by chance, so you want to believe in God the way your religion tells you to believe that "your God is protecting you and this earth from the evil". But the religions do not tell its followers that religion is the actual evil because it describes God in the wrong way. That narration of Richard Ketchum is to further someone's twisted belief system. And that's why I have a problem with such narration, because I fear that iit will continues bleed into our successive generation, which will continue to be bonded to these twisted beliefs instead of thinking freely. Thats the risk I am concerned about.

And just because 32000 british troops lost the war, it doesn't mean that "God on my side", which is different from questioning the "existance of God". "Religion", "God", "some event which you believe was done by God", because these are all different things, although, "protectors of religion" will tell you that they all mean the same, and their "religious book" is the ONLY word of God. That's too much of bullshit to digest in one life.





Quote:
Originally Posted by lazycis View Post
I find your ideas illogical, but I respect your opinion. Those who seek God will find Him.

If you deny facts, however, the facts do not change because of your opinion. People once believed that the Earth is flat.
You cannot deny that the American nation was found by those who where seeking religious freedom. Also read biographies of G. Washington, A. Lincoln, J. Adams and other founding fathers. They were sincere believers. I cannot explain America's greatness by simple luck. The founding fathers started builidng from scratch about 300 hundred years ago, far behind Europe and Asia. Now the US is the richest country in the world, despite the fact that it's neither the biggest nor the most populous.

As for your questions, I cannot prove that God exist, just like you cannot prove that He does not. Either way, it's a belief. I chose to believe in God.
God is the omnipresent, omni powerful spirit who fills the universe. If you want to know more, just ask.
__________________
"The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

- One Great man to another, 1814

Last edited by sanju; 12-31-2008 at 04:54 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:42 PM
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skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of skd has much to be proud of
Default And God Bless you Javadeveloper

And God Bless you Javadeveloper and God bless everyone
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2008, 04:57 PM
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javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute javadeveloper has a reputation beyond repute
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Originally Posted by skd View Post
If that's you criteria for judging the existence of God..I am amazed..
With One anomaly you decided on his existence...When there are gazillions of his amazing creations that no human can create. Human himself being one, We should be thankful for his blessing
Thankful that we get more than what we need to eat, Ask a starving kids in Darfur.
Thankful for Eyes he has given to See, As blind man
Thankful for Limbs, Ask people who lost that.
And Millions of other things that he blessed you with
And you want to compare all this with GC (green color piece of Paper)
answers my questions if you can

1.GOD is he or she?
2.As per Hindu shastra there 30 Million Gods+some(or one) for Christians+some(or one) for Muslims+few more for different people -- who is correct GOD here and whom should we follow.

What % of people around the world get more than what we need to eat.(90%? or 50%? 0r 10%?)

Other things we are blessed with are because nature.Don't say who created nature -- nature created nature which is created by nature and so on...
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