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Old 10-11-2010, 11:53 PM
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BimmerFAn will become famous soon enough
Default Argument Against DREAM Act Amnesty

I hate to be the one to have to make this argument here as I deeply sympathize with everyone who is a potential DREAM Act beneficiary, but there is a logical paradox in this bill that I cannot simply overlook.

If this bill were to pass and be enacted into law, what would be the next step for some two million undocumented aliens who would benefit from it? Obviosuly documented and legal beneficiaries would be able to drop their visas and embrace a level an unprecedented level of workforce and social mobility previously denied to them. However, I can not with say with confidence that the newly-documented beneficiaries would be able to enjoy the same priviledges.

Primarily, the cost of obtaining a college education would deter most beneficiaries from being able to fulfill one of the key requirements for full legalization. Just because someone is allowed to go to college does not mean that they would be able to. If you think that college loans will enable your dreams, unfortunately you are sadly mistaken. Current loan underwriting standards are too restrictive to allow someone with zero equity and zero income to secure a loan. College takes years of financial planning for most middle-class american families with a steady annual income well above the national median average. As someone who works in Finance you would have to show me one hell of a model to get me to me to accept the risk of underwriting a loan for someone who has no tax history and no real source of income, only a "DREAM". In-state tuition programs or any federal assistance would put an enormous pressure on the taxpayers and would bankrupt the underlying program funds. As a taxpayer myself I would be furious to know that my taxes are going to fund the education of people who did not equally contribute to the pot to begin with, but are now lining up to reap the benefits of my hard work. Public discontent would quickly halt these lending practices and present newly-legalized beneficiaries with yet another dead end.

The two-year requirement as it is written into this Bill is a joke as well. If you want to stay and work in the US you need a minimum of a Bachelor's. A 4 year degree is the only way to go, and as I said before, plan to spend close to 200k on a decent diploma. I have been fortunate enough to attend college for free but have friends who have great jobs, paying more than 60-80k and are struggling to make their monthly loan payments which can be in excess of $1500 per month.

Lastly, this Bill does nothing to solve the problem of the other 10 million undocumented aliens residing in the United States. The beneficiaries of this act would be able to do very little to help their parents, siblings and relatives who would still be stuck without a status. To be honest, I am completely against general amnesty knowing my family's own legal struggles with immigration. It would simply be unfair to the thousands of highly skilled workers and researchers stuck in Visa limbo waiting for their Green Card applications to come current. Allowing illegals to cut infront of them in line would be the equivalent of a school bully cutting you in the lunch line to claim the last cookie. Unfortunately, the only reason there are 10 million undocumented residents living in the United States is labor economics. Due to their status they have to work for less, much less. If they were legalized many of the jobs they currently fill would evaporate as paying a "fair" wage would bankrupt most businesses (landscaping, construction, restaurant) that currently employ these workers. This would leave them in a jobless and furher exacerbate the problem of poverty already plaguing immigrant communities.

I am not an enemy of the DREAM Act. I support it and I hope that one of you can address my concerns and we can have a civil and fulfilling debate. Look forward to your comments.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:28 AM
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Dude, You do realize that it is not the senate floor and anything debated here, civil or uncivil is inconsequential?
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:46 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerFAn View Post
I hate to be the one to have to make this argument here as I deeply sympathize with everyone who is a potential DREAM Act beneficiary, but there is a logical paradox in this bill that I cannot simply overlook.

If this bill were to pass and be enacted into law, what would be the next step for some two million undocumented aliens who would benefit from it? Obviosuly documented and legal beneficiaries would be able to drop their visas and embrace a level an unprecedented level of workforce and social mobility previously denied to them. However, I can not with say with confidence that the newly-documented beneficiaries would be able to enjoy the same priviledges.

Primarily, the cost of obtaining a college education would deter most beneficiaries from being able to fulfill one of the key requirements for full legalization. Just because someone is allowed to go to college does not mean that they would be able to. If you think that college loans will enable your dreams, unfortunately you are sadly mistaken. Current loan underwriting standards are too restrictive to allow someone with zero equity and zero income to secure a loan. College takes years of financial planning for most middle-class american families with a steady annual income well above the national median average. As someone who works in Finance you would have to show me one hell of a model to get me to me to accept the risk of underwriting a loan for someone who has no tax history and no real source of income, only a "DREAM". In-state tuition programs or any federal assistance would put an enormous pressure on the taxpayers and would bankrupt the underlying program funds. As a taxpayer myself I would be furious to know that my taxes are going to fund the education of people who did not equally contribute to the pot to begin with, but are now lining up to reap the benefits of my hard work. Public discontent would quickly halt these lending practices and present newly-legalized beneficiaries with yet another dead end.

The two-year requirement as it is written into this Bill is a joke as well. If you want to stay and work in the US you need a minimum of a Bachelor's. A 4 year degree is the only way to go, and as I said before, plan to spend close to 200k on a decent diploma. I have been fortunate enough to attend college for free but have friends who have great jobs, paying more than 60-80k and are struggling to make their monthly loan payments which can be in excess of $1500 per month.

Lastly, this Bill does nothing to solve the problem of the other 10 million undocumented aliens residing in the United States. The beneficiaries of this act would be able to do very little to help their parents, siblings and relatives who would still be stuck without a status. To be honest, I am completely against general amnesty knowing my family's own legal struggles with immigration. It would simply be unfair to the thousands of highly skilled workers and researchers stuck in Visa limbo waiting for their Green Card applications to come current. Allowing illegals to cut infront of them in line would be the equivalent of a school bully cutting you in the lunch line to claim the last cookie. Unfortunately, the only reason there are 10 million undocumented residents living in the United States is labor economics. Due to their status they have to work for less, much less. If they were legalized many of the jobs they currently fill would evaporate as paying a "fair" wage would bankrupt most businesses (landscaping, construction, restaurant) that currently employ these workers. This would leave them in a jobless and furher exacerbate the problem of poverty already plaguing immigrant communities.

I am not an enemy of the DREAM Act. I support it and I hope that one of you can address my concerns and we can have a civil and fulfilling debate. Look forward to your comments.
Your motion to pass Dream Act is dismissed.

You can now argue on some other bill on the floor of IV. After that we all will go to recess.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-12-2010, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minimalist View Post
Dude, You do realize that it is not the senate floor and anything debated here, civil or uncivil is inconsequential?
Yes, there will be a push for it soon and as IV we all should decide which side we're on as a policy.
I agree with what BimmerFan says. quick reply... will send in a more detailed reply tonight.
Dream beneficiaries should ideally join the end of EB queues. As BimmerFan said 2-4 million kids would be eligible for college legally, but it shouldn't be at the cost of tax payers giving them free education. They are not going to get loans. Even I've been putting off my MBA for 2 years because as an I-140 I don't get loans to pay 50K/year.
Even if the govt decides to give them free education, it doesn't make them the brainiest.
A better way to increase graduates is a world wide SAT which is a better test than jumping fences and dehydration.

A school/college bill for a group that has more than 50% school drop out rate and 10% teen pregnancy rate. WTF? Is that why the graduation clause is removed. VERY CLEVER!!!

What happens with just enrolling for 2 years instead of completing the course? They could get a GC even without paying the entire fee and skipping all classes. But the bigger part is, they can sponsor their illegal parents, brother, sister, husband even in a foreign country. Their kids are already granted amnesty.
Also Dream should ideally allocate GCs to only graduates that the country is short of.

So you see its not even really about college or education, nobody cares, its just a smoke screen, deception.
Its just another clandestine way to get mass amnesty/legal status.

"labor economics. Due to their status they have to work for less, much less. If they were legalized many of the jobs they currently fill would evaporate as paying a "fair" wage would bankrupt most businesses"
This is very true, thats why I said amnesty won't work. Also 3 million were granted amnesty in 1986 and our long term agriculture is only 800,000, and we're still short of farm workers???

Annual budget expenses - social security 700 billion, welfare 350 billion, unemployment 200 billion
All new immigrants should be scrubbed off un-productive free-loaders, who add to this $ 1 Trillion bill.
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Last edited by tonyHK12; 10-13-2010 at 02:23 PM. Reason: make border jumpers less suttle
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2010, 04:40 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyHK12 View Post
Yes, there will be a push for it soon and as IV we all should decide which side we're on as a policy.
I agree with what BimmerFan says. quick reply... will send in a more detailed reply tonight.
Dream beneficiaries should ideally join the end of EB queues. As BimmerFan said 2-4 million kids would be eligible for college legally, but it shouldn't be at the cost of tax payers giving them free education. They are not going to get loans. Even I've been putting off my MBA for 2 years because as an I-140 I don't get loans to pay 50K/year.
Even if the govt decides to give them free education, it doesn't make them the brainiest.
A better way to increase graduates is a world wide SAT which is a better test than jumping fences and dehydration.

A school/college bill for a group that has more than 50% school drop out rate and 10% teen pregnancy rate. WTF? Is that why the graduation clause is removed. VERY CLEVER!!!

What happens with just enrolling for 2 years instead of completing the course? They could get a GC even without paying the entire fee and skipping all classes. But the bigger part is, they can sponsor their illegal parents, brother, sister, husband even in a foreign country. Their kids are already granted amnesty.
Also Dream should ideally allocate GCs to only graduates that the country is short of.

So you see its not even really about college or education, nobody cares, its just a smoke screen, deception.
Its just another clandestine way to get mass amnesty/legal status.

"labor economics. Due to their status they have to work for less, much less. If they were legalized many of the jobs they currently fill would evaporate as paying a "fair" wage would bankrupt most businesses"
This is very true, thats why I said amnesty won't work. Also 3 million were granted amnesty in 1986 and our long term agriculture is only 800,000, and we're still short of farm workers???

Annual budget expenses - social security 700 billion, welfare 350 billion, unemployment 200 billion
All new immigrants should be scrubbed off un-productive free-loaders, who add to this $ 1 Trillion bill.
Dream should give VISAS not greencards. This is all political propoganda by Democrats and left wing Republicans.
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