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-   -   IV Update: Text of the 'outsourcing bill' (https://immigrationvoice.org/forum/forum16-iv-agenda-and-legislative-updates/25288-iv-update-text-of-the-outsourcing-bill.html)

snathan 04-26-2009 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappu (Post 336865)
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...423_219068.htm

But advocates for skilled immigrants—many of whom remain stuck for years on H-1Bs waiting in the long queue for permanent residency—worry that the bill is a political maneuver rather than an earnest effort at reform. Aman Kapoor, president of the skilled immigrant advocate group Immigration Voice, says that a more effective bill would ensure H-1B visa workers are on a level playing field with U.S. workers. "Skilled immigrants on H-1Bs don't get the same rights and protections as everyone else," says Kapoor. "So wouldn't the solution be to empower and enable the skilled immigrants on H-1Bs such that…skilled immigrants on H-1s have adequate protections so that no one can take advantage of [them]? But no one wants to talk about protections for skilled immigrants."

I posted my commnets on thiss....did you.

senthil1 04-26-2009 05:42 PM

One of the abuse is to avoid paying tax.Some big companies are sending L1 persons out of the country after they complete 11 months(If L1 persons are staying more than 1 year company has to pay tax). Now L1 and H1 are having same type of of nature of work but L1 has so much undue advantages like L2 can work, No salary restrictions, Companies can avoid taxes in many circumstances with no restrictions in rules like H1b at all. No cap also.This is also some type of discrimination in the law. In fact L1 need to be capped than H1b as L1 is playing more role in displacing USA workers but many cases in H1b is creating more jobs by innovation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNMan (Post 336869)
M**f** ganguteli

I'm not anti immigrant. I'm on H1 (actually EAD with EB3 PD of Jan 2004).Almost got laid off with replacement by an L1 from TCS. Good for now for another 3 months!!

If you still think against me, i wish you get a situation where you might get laid off and replaced by an L1

I'm for reform for GC processing and I dont support the abuses because of L1s

No more discussions with idiots like you


polapragada 04-26-2009 07:16 PM

I have seen so many in this forum spits on L1. This is really bad, we all belong to one family and one kind.

If some one thinks L1 is more advantagous why don't those people join TCS or some thing...

Well let me put some of the Disadv.

1. On L1 one canot change the job. If you want to change the employer you should have H1B
2. L1B salaries are 20% less than H1B on AVG
3. If employer want to send you back (For any silly stupid reason) you are gone
4. Most of the companies like TCS, INFOSYS, WIPRO won't file green cards for 99.99% people
5. On avg a L1 person stays in US in a trip for 1 - 2 years.


Now think!

And above all as I said all those L1 are living in this country legally like me and you, living a painful uncertain life. Because the time is bad now we can't blame them.

Some one talking about getting laid off with TCS employee. just recapture the 5 or 8 years back when you replaced a AMERICAN CITIZEN and you can't call people as idiots ... its street clear.

Well some of you may not agree with me, but if you want to respond harhly just visit any L1B guys house some how they are living.

Unite, Fight! Don't fall for same old british divide and rule tricks.

polapragada 04-26-2009 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNMan (Post 336822)
I like majority of others who came here on H1 with genunine intent of settling down should work toward common goal of easier GC processing and not support outsourcing idiots esp L1s who is nothing but shipping jobs overseas and making a field (eg IT) minimum wage pay. Just look around how much TCS pay .

COmmon goal of us is easier and humane green card processing and to work towards the goal to stop blatant abuses in the form of L1 (and some H1 )

Watch your language.. My friend.. don't throw your rotten ideas as facts

TCS for deputed employees
1. 60.5 K -70 K
2. Full medical insurance (whole family) from Cigna...
3. 401K 4%
4. All travel and relation expenses
5. So many...
--> better than most desi employers

If you think that there is abuse in L1 so in H1

Becasue of so people like you anti-I could able to successfully devide us.

If you think that out sourcing and sending jobs to India is utterly wrong.. so giving jobs to foreigners in US.
You and me are here because of globalization, if we want to get PROTECTed from MORE globalization.. for sure every body will suffer, Indians (in India),L1,H1, You, me, Even Citizens.

And if you are an Indian and going to loose job in USA because of the ptotectionizam you will end begging a job from the same Indian outsourcing companies. Watch out..

snathan 04-26-2009 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polapragada (Post 336925)
I have seen so many in this forum spits on L1. This is really bad, we all belong to one family and one kind.

If some one thinks L1 is more advantagous why don't those people join TCS or some thing...

Well let me put some of the Disadv.

1. On L1 one canot change the job. If you want to change the employer you should have H1B
2. L1B salaries are 20% less than H1B on AVG
3. If employer want to send you back (For any silly stupid reason) you are gone
4. Most of the companies like TCS, INFOSYS, WIPRO won't file green cards for 99.99% people
5. On avg a L1 person stays in US in a trip for 1 - 2 years.


Now think!

And above all as I said all those L1 are living in this country legally like me and you, living a painful uncertain life. Because the time is bad now we can't blame them.

Some one talking about getting laid off with TCS employee. just recapture the 5 or 8 years back when you replaced a AMERICAN CITIZEN and you can't call people as idiots ... its street clear.

Well some of you may not agree with me, but if you want to respond harhly just visit any L1B guys house some how they are living.

Unite, Fight! Don't fall for same old british divide and rule tricks.

We dont have to fight on H1B vs L1B. But the fact is employees with L1 are suffering more then H1Bs.

polapragada 04-26-2009 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snathan (Post 336929)
We dont have to fight on H1B vs L1B. But the fact is employees with L1 are suffering more then H1Bs.

YES santhan...

BTW I am H1B :D

polapragada 04-26-2009 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNMan (Post 336936)
Thats exactly why we need to be against L1s. There is no numerical limit on them. Companies can pay peanuts as you just wrote.They work here for 1 year and take the job permenantly. They screw the work culture here

What work culture you are talking about.. LOL!!

Its besiness man... you are in a captlist country...
And we are here because of GLOBALIZATION...
Don't be too selfish

bigboy007 04-26-2009 08:43 PM

understood the anguish,... But will it do any good. No for sure. If not on H1, If not on L1 then outsourcing companies will find alternative like B1/B2 i have seen many examples... if on B1/B2 no benefits at all get the person get the work done forget the "Person"....

This bill will INCREASE Outsourcing.. .My view. becoz employers after reading the text would say why should i worry about filing H1 after all so no new H1 Transfers to regular comps and no to existing consulting companies due to 50% limit. L1's are screwed.

Ask yourself what does it do and whom does it help. Does it help existing economy , looks to many becoz they dont understand it increases offshoring...

But there is already enough abuse in H1/L1 , How is IV recommending path forward for this bill ?

bigboy007 04-26-2009 08:48 PM

Your view is right myfriend. No one cant be in your shoes but it cant be channeled at L1's. ppl here feel the heat of outsourcing through H1/L1 as thats the route taken. But if there is limited oursourcing everyone is happy. We are missing that and technically that cant happen due to trade issues... as i said If not H1 then L1 else B2....... On B2 one is NOT supposed to work they still abuse.. .

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNMan (Post 336938)
you will know when you face layoffs and unfairly they target you.


vbkris77 04-26-2009 11:03 PM

Talk to DOL
 
Hello TNMan, If L1 guys is doing a H1B duty and if you can prove it, sue TCS and talk to DOL. You won't need GC trust me. They will pay a lot.. and pls. help us by creating one more thread on this subject exclusively.. Don't hijack an important thread like this...

But forum, Pls. get back focus onto the main topic..

pappu 04-26-2009 11:27 PM

Warning
 
Please stop H1 Vs L1 discussion and do not support those who aim to divide this community on various visa types, categories, nationalities etc. Any further attempts by any member in this direction will result in ban. We would appreciate if you read the bill posted by IV and provide some analysis on its content on this thread.

gc28262 04-26-2009 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNMan (Post 336938)
you will know when you face layoffs and unfairly they target you.

H1 and L1 laws:
We (employees) didn't write it.
Outsourcing companies didn't write it.

US government wrote these laws.

Why should an H1B pack his bag in zero days when he loses his job ? ( He doesn't even get time to sell his house, take care of his kid's education etc)

Why is an H1B employee asked to pay for social security and medicare when government knows that he cannot take advantage of these benefits ?

Why does different DMVs discriminate against H1Bs when issuing licenses ?


Mr Dick and co is ready to kick you all out of the country. It does not matter whether you are on H1 or L1.:mad:

walking_dude 04-27-2009 12:56 AM

My analysis...
 
Newer version is - as should've been expected - more protectionist than before.

1) It prohibits H1B workers from working in contract positions.There is a redundant provision for the L1 visa as well (there is already a law which does this for L1). However it doesn't prevent American companies from keeping these contract workers in India or elsewhere and co-ordinate the work through web-conferencing, video conferencing, VPN/VNC etc.

2) It increases H1B fees by another 1000 dollars. There will be the added cost of advertising on DOL website. Also, the legal costs of navigating the audits. It also enables Tort attorneys to sue the companies on behalf of labor unions such as IEEE-USA, PG, Bright Future Jobs, Zazona etc. In essence it makes the whole visa program unviable. American companies cannot participate in the visa program without letting the DOL and the Tort attorneys poking their noses in the daily functioning of Corporate America. Imagine which company will apply for H1B when you'll have ads airing on TV from Tort attorneys - 'Have you been displaced by H1B worker? Call 1-800-TORT-ATTORNEY'?

3) It has a whole gamut of so-called 'H1B/L1B worker protections'. Unless and until the complaining foreign worker's visa status/GC status is protected against employer retaliation, these provisions will remain only on paper, as foreigner workers facing the prospect of forced departure from the country will not complain - extra worker protections or not. They might as well scrap these provisions and save some trees in the process!

4) It retains the provision that H1B/L1 worker must be provided all originals for H1B, Green Card etc. However this will be moot, as there won't be many H1B/L1 workers left in the US to take the benefit. They would already have moved to their home countries, brining the salaries down in their home countries die to excess supply. This combined with technical enablers are going to make outsourcing HOT. I think it's a good time to invest in the stocks of these outsourcing companies. Their returns are going to increase exponentially in a year. I am not surprised, if these companies send a 'Thank You' note to Senators Durbin and Grassley for making such a windfall possible.


If this year only 44,000 visas were used after half a month, wait until this law passes. There will already 10,000 or less visa applications. On a short term basis wages will sky-rocket, when companies are already struggling to make the ends meet. This will definitely make the usage of technological innovations such as the ones mentioned in point 1 more appealing to the companies. In the long run Outsourcing will become cheaper and more attractive.

Faced with accute worker shortage and unreasonably high-salaries driven scarcity in an economy under recession, Companies will have only 3 options. 1) Announce bankruptcy and get out of business salvaging what they can 2) Leverage technology to do outsourcing circumventing the need for visas 3) Beg the government for another 'Stimulus' and more borrowed money from the Chinese to pay the salaries.

This will hit hard the humanitarian immigration for refugees, asylees etc. USCIS is a government department run on visa application fees. As H1B fee-base reduces US government will have to appropriate more funds to USCIS to keep these programs running. The cost of these programmes will increasingly be borne by the American tax-payer. As jobs keep getting outsourced at a much faster speed tax-base formed by these H1B/L1 workers will shift to other economies benefiting them, the government will have to increases the taxes to make up for the difference. No doubt this will increase the tax burden on an average American - even those who had nothing to do with H1B, pro- or against.

The day this law passes will be a great day for Outsourcing, and a sad day for America.



Quote:

Originally Posted by pappu (Post 336967)
Please stop H1 Vs L1 discussion and do not support those who aim to divide this community on various visa types, categories, nationalities etc. Any further attempts by any member in this direction will result in ban. We would appreciate if you read the bill posted by IV and provide some analysis on its content on this thread.


bigboy007 04-27-2009 01:14 AM

Not sure about the increase in fees here is what i have seen comparing it to INA and subsections...


1. Higher wage requirements defs being added to definitions seciton in INA [Immigration and Nationality Act], Requirement of Internet posting, wage determination.

2. 90 Days being replaced as 180 days for non displacement option

3. No consulting for H1B employees based on the Recruitment (F) section.

4. SEC 102. I states if no. of employees > 50 , sum of [H1B, L(1,2)(L1A, L1 , L2 Perdef 101(a)(15)(L)))] should not exceed 50% of No. of employees. No more H1B's

5. Sec 111. mispresentation period increased to 24 months from 12 months, USCIS will conduct audits for all employers if no. of employees > 100 and no. of H1 employees > 15% , Publish publicly those reports

6. Failure to meet a condition increase from 1000 to 2000 , failure for misrepresentation increased from 5000 to 10000. Employer will be liable for employees lost wages and benefits.

7. illegal : H1B non immigrant to pay a penalty for ceasing an employment with employer before the agreed date, failure to provide common benefits health , life , disability , insurance , retirement , savings, cash/noncash bonus etc...

8. with in 90 days of enacting S887 , secretary of labor will provide website to post these positions on labor department website.

9. stream line of job classifications and roles with 1 year of enacting of S887...

10. DOL can hire 200+ employees to fill these requirements ;)

+ l1's I have not gone through....



Quote:

Originally Posted by walking_dude (Post 336985)
Newer version is - as should've been expected - more protectionist than before.

1) It prohibits H1B workers from working in contract positions.There is a redundant provision for the L1 visa as well (there is already a law which does this for L1). However it doesn't prevent American companies from keeping these contract workers in India or elsewhere and co-ordinate the work through web-conferencing, video conferencing, VPN/VNC etc.

2) It increases H1B fees by another 1000 dollars. There will be the added cost of advertising on DOL website. Also, the legal costs of navigating the audits. It also enables Tort attorneys to sue the companies on behalf of labor unions such as IEEE-USA, PG, Bright Future Jobs, Zazona etc. In essence it makes the whole visa program unviable. American companies cannot participate in the visa program without letting the DOL and the Tort attorneys poking their noses in the daily functioning of Corporate America. Imagine which company will apply for H1B when you'll have ads airing on TV from Tort attorneys - 'Have you been displaced by H1B worker? Call 1-800-TORT-ATTORNEY'?

3) It has a whole gamut of so-called 'H1B/L1B worker protections'. Unless and until the complaining foreign worker's visa status/GC status is protected against employer retaliation, these provisions will remain only on paper, as foreigner workers facing the prospect of forced departure from the country will not complain - extra worker protections or not. They might as well scrap these provisions and save some trees in the process!

4) It retains the provision that H1B/L1 worker must be provided all originals for H1B, Green Card etc. However this will be moot, as there won't be many H1B/L1 workers left in the US to take the benefit. They would already have moved to their home countries, brining the salaries down in their home countries die to excess supply. This combined with technical enablers are going to make outsourcing HOT. I think it's a good time to invest in the stocks of these outsourcing companies. Their returns are going to increase exponentially in a year. I am not surprised, if these companies send a 'Thank You' note to Senators Durbin and Grassley for making such a windfall possible.


If this year only 44,000 visas were used after half a month, wait until this law passes. There will already 10,000 or less visa applications. On a short term basis wages will sky-rocket, when companies are already struggling to make the ends meet. This will definitely make the usage of technological innovations such as the ones mentioned in point 1 more appealing to the companies. In the long run Outsourcing will become cheaper and more attractive.

Faced with accute worker shortage and unreasonably high-salaries driven scarcity in an economy under recession, Companies will have only 3 options. 1) Announce bankruptcy and get out of business salvaging what they can 2) Leverage technology to do outsourcing circumventing the need for visas 3) Beg the government for another 'Stimulus' and more borrowed money from the Chinese to pay the salaries.

This will hit hard the humanitarian immigration for refugees, asylees etc. USCIS is a government department run on visa application fees. As H1B fee-base reduces US government will have to appropriate more funds to USCIS to keep these programs running. The cost of these programmes will increasingly be borne by the American tax-payer. As jobs keep getting outsourced at a much faster speed tax-base formed by these H1B/L1 workers will shift to other economies benefiting them, the government will have to increases the taxes to make up for the difference. No doubt this will increase the tax burden on an average American - even those who had nothing to do with H1B, pro- or against.

The day this law passes will be a great day for Outsourcing, and a sad day for America.


pd_recapturing 04-27-2009 01:36 AM

It seems that Indian govt cant do much to raise this issue in WTO.

http://business.rediff.com/report/20...a-proposal.htm


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