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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 12:58 PM
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psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts
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Originally Posted by forever_waiting View Post
A half baked solution is no solution at all. What we need now is to push for ALL our provisions to be included in the House version...similar to how most made it into the Senate version thanks to IVs collective efforts. Otherwise the late 1990s/early 2000s will repeat itself and the GC queue will only grow longer. Those of us who have been waiting for 5-10 years might scrape through in the next 3-5 years (maybe for EB2, still difficult for EB3). But think of how increased backlogs will make high-skilled immigrants lives even more miserable. There is no research or analysis needed, which is what you seem to indicate. The math is pretty clear...close to 195*2.2 new applicants to queue with only 50K added (with some caveats). Per-country limit will add fairness by re-adjusting the queue but that is not enough to reduce backlogs..it only means everyone will wait for several years.
What is being discussed now is a comprehensive bill...there is no next time to it..once the version agreed by the Senate and House is passed that is it.. that comprehensive bill will define the immigration system of the US for the next several decades. The time for piecemeal is gone (when the opportunity for piecemeal was there...IV tried hard with 3012 and almost succeeded...but then there was at least a slight possibility then for additional piecemeal bills to increase GC count, visa recapture, which is not the case now).
You are right about pushing Congress with more number of our ilk ...which is what the IV advocacy days are all about and which is where we convey (or remind..as this msg has been conveyed all along) that high-skilled immigration is not about H1B but GCs.. Do participate in it.
You are thinking about what you want but not at all taking into consideration how you are going to get it and that is more important. Every one is entitled to his/her opinion and is free to take actions based upon them. What you said makes sense but is it practical, I doubt it. Why did the earlier IV effort (3012) not materialize? I am not blaming any one but this is a fact that that effort did not yield what we wanted and in my opinion the reason is that we lack the required weight to pull off any great feat. A great misery to a miniscule minority is far less important to others than a minor irritation to the majority.

As you see, the final goal is same and I do not differ there...my only point of disagreement is the strategy. I am not here to convince anyone just wanted to understand the reasons to oppose 2131 before contributing any resources towards it. I think I know whatever others wanted to say and this should be the end of this discussion.

For the curious, yes I did contribute (~400 bucks)
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 01:06 PM
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psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts psagarn is infamous around these parts
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Originally Posted by imh1b View Post
PS. Ignore idiots. There are such people everywhere and in every activist movement. They will never have a satisfying life whichever community they will live in their life. A human being cannot live alone and so it is wrong to only think selfishly or behave like pests living off someone else hard work in IV. Each one of us has a responsibility towards our community well being. Karma catches up to each and has a way of teaching a lesson or rewarding people handsomely.
Excellent piece of advice, thanks a lot! you have done a great service to IV by standing up to (showing?) what you believe in (my way or highway!). Truly outstanding and civilized words that you used for people you have not even spent a few minutes with, leave alone knowing them (pests! Idiots!) really say a lot!

Way to go imh1b!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 04:22 PM
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Your response is a little vague and I am not sure what you mean by the statement below. This is not a dreamt-out strategy that I or few of us have came up with. I have volunteered for IV and been to 3 past lobby days but am still learning about how Congress works. But I do know that every action item that IV core announces is strategically timed (and that is why the timing of these action items is so important). And the biggest lesson that I have learned from advocacy days is our goal as constituents is not to listen passively about what a bill should contain...but rather talk to lawmakers and tell them what it should contain (in this case..all our provisions and that its not just about increase H1B..GC has to go up proportionately AND other backlog elimination provisions have to be included). That has been the focus of IVs persistent lobbying over the past 6-7 years. Bottomline is that 2131 is not a step in the right direction due to reasons we have discussed above. You proposal of taking what we get now and hoping rest will get solved in the future is flawed. Remember 2007-CIR when, at the last minute, any pending high-skilled immigrant clauses were chucked out of the bill as part of compromise to include other provisions? Same could happen here if we try to cling on to the few high-skilled/GC clauses that you seem to be content restricting the bill to.

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Originally Posted by psagarn View Post
You are thinking about what you want but not at all taking into consideration how you are going to get it and that is more important. Every one is entitled to his/her opinion and is free to take actions based upon them. What you said makes sense but is it practical, I doubt it. Why did the earlier IV effort (3012) not materialize? I am not blaming any one but this is a fact that that effort did not yield what we wanted and in my opinion the reason is that we lack the required weight to pull off any great feat. A great misery to a miniscule minority is far less important to others than a minor irritation to the majority.

As you see, the final goal is same and I do not differ there...my only point of disagreement is the strategy. I am not here to convince anyone just wanted to understand the reasons to oppose 2131 before contributing any resources towards it. I think I know whatever others wanted to say and this should be the end of this discussion.

For the curious, yes I did contribute (~400 bucks)
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2013, 10:01 PM
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Default I am planning to attend advocacy event in DC

I am planning to attend the DC event. I cancelled my holiday in Aug and took off on Sep 9th & 10th.

I did not attend any of the previous advocacy events.

I will be driving from New Jersey.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2013, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by forever_waiting View Post
Your response is a little vague and I am not sure what you mean by the statement below. This is not a dreamt-out strategy that I or few of us have came up with. I have volunteered for IV and been to 3 past lobby days but am still learning about how Congress works. But I do know that every action item that IV core announces is strategically timed (and that is why the timing of these action items is so important). And the biggest lesson that I have learned from advocacy days is our goal as constituents is not to listen passively about what a bill should contain...but rather talk to lawmakers and tell them what it should contain (in this case..all our provisions and that its not just about increase H1B..GC has to go up proportionately AND other backlog elimination provisions have to be included). That has been the focus of IVs persistent lobbying over the past 6-7 years. Bottomline is that 2131 is not a step in the right direction due to reasons we have discussed above. You proposal of taking what we get now and hoping rest will get solved in the future is flawed. Remember 2007-CIR when, at the last minute, any pending high-skilled immigrant clauses were chucked out of the bill as part of compromise to include other provisions? Same could happen here if we try to cling on to the few high-skilled/GC clauses that you seem to be content restricting the bill to.
I think this entire discussion could have been avoided if little more efforts would have been made to educate people. I have been actively participating in IV action items for last one year and I could not grasp the entire issue based on one email that was sent out. And yes, I belong to the STEM fields, so on the face 2131 DOES seems okay to me. In fact, I could not answer this question to someone who I had invited to be an IV member. If I have to have any chance of convincing other people, we need to be doing more on educating people. How difficult is it for the experts to write a two page summary and distribute to the members. Some might not even read it, but at least could have used it to answer questions, like the one I got. Sorry we are arranging this big advocacy day event even when majority of us do not grasp the whole issue completely.

Now some might say, oh this is a volunteer driven organization and people should not expect to be educated, they should educate themselves. But sorry if we are ourselves convinced by the mission and are seeking more support then its our job to convince others; else we should not ask for participation. People coming from India, like me are intrinsically skeptical because of everything that we see there, so we should not simply expect to receive attention/money/time. We have to be able to “sell” our mission, else be ready to proceed alone. And that’s perfectly fine. We cannot simply gloss over issues.

That brings me to other big question of giving "Donor" access to the members who have been donating. I have personally donated frequently and have brought in a bunch as well. As I educated here, I also contacted at least 50 universities about our missions and asked for support. But still I do not get access to what is really being done. I was promised this almost a year back, but due to HR3012 being at critical juncture, I was asked to wait. I was even willing to self-identify in any form that is suitable. Sorry, but if I am myself not aware then I can’t convince others. Other important part about donating is to know how the money was spent. A year-end summary of how all the money received was spent was not sent. I have donated to other non-profits even run by students, but they promptly send a summary at the year end. I know that people are working hard but this is super important if we are to make other aware about IVs mission.

Sorry for the long post, but it had to be said at this point. Bottom line, if we do not do a good job at convincing people then we cannot expect more support, no matter what the mission is.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2013, 09:13 AM
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@checkmet64 I know some answers to your questions. You raised a good question about flier explaining pros and cons. It maybe a good idea, but I think IV is a fully volunteer organization and for every work, there needs someone doing that. Who will write it?

There is no more donor forum. Being a donor myself, I do not see it anymore. It seems to been stopped. I think it was a maintenance issue. The CIR bill and House strategy has been explained very well to all active IV members. We have been having conference calls. There was one very big call for all IV members last weekend. You should also like the Facebook page for updates. I think one cannot just visit the site and passively check updates every few months and go back. IV has become more interactive outside forum from what I can see. It has become more one on one with people who are taking part. Forums are full of people who say anything because nobody knows them.

Those who take initiative get more is what see now. I and many others have visited our local Congressman in their meeting recently. We had a conference call with IV leaders before we went to train. About your final questions on donations, you maybe giving to other non-profits but they may not be lobbying. IV is different. I sincerely request you to come to Washington DC next month and see for yourself how these people do things. You can directly ask them if you have doubts. They are like us and will answer you.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2013, 10:32 AM
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Default Any accomodation , car pooling initations

I want to participate in advocay event. I have to book my flight tickets
Is there any group booking for accomodation and car pooling ? Any separte thread running for these
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2013, 06:52 PM
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@checkmet64 I know some answers to your questions. You raised a good question about flier explaining pros and cons. It maybe a good idea, but I think IV is a fully volunteer organization and for every work, there needs someone doing that. Who will write it?

There is no more donor forum. Being a donor myself, I do not see it anymore. It seems to been stopped. I think it was a maintenance issue. The CIR bill and House strategy has been explained very well to all active IV members. We have been having conference calls. There was one very big call for all IV members last weekend. You should also like the Facebook page for updates. I think one cannot just visit the site and passively check updates every few months and go back. IV has become more interactive outside forum from what I can see. It has become more one on one with people who are taking part. Forums are full of people who say anything because nobody knows them.

Those who take initiative get more is what see now. I and many others have visited our local Congressman in their meeting recently. We had a conference call with IV leaders before we went to train. About your final questions on donations, you maybe giving to other non-profits but they may not be lobbying. IV is different. I sincerely request you to come to Washington DC next month and see for yourself how these people do things. You can directly ask them if you have doubts. They are like us and will answer you.
eastindia, exactly this is the kind of response I mean by "glossing over" the facts. What is required is specifics. Asking members to come to DC even without them understanding how this bill is harmful is crazy. If people have been to these conference calls then no one knows the specifics to share here or with the emails that are going out? Not everyone is going to be able to attend conference calls. Same thing applies to other things like financial statements. There might be valid reasons but they also have to be communicated.

And yes, its an incorrect assumption that people "visit the site and passively check updates every few months and go back." I personally have been doing all the action items recommended for CIR and 2131 and asking friends and family to do them as well. Even though I dint completely understand the implications, I trusted IV core's judgement. But the question about 2131 was raised a couple of times before as well and no one cared to answer with specifics, so I had to bump it up strongly.

The goal here is to understand so that we can make others participate. But looks like no one really cares.

ps the tone of some of the responses on this forum is aimed at driving away people, again if we are convinced by our mission we should be more tolerant.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 10:27 AM
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@checkmet64 I think the issue is IV being volunteer organization and so there has to be a few volunteers to answer questions and communicate to members. Generally it is a job of full time staff in other organizations. Since everyone has a regular job, it seems to be the main problem. I personally took half day off 2 times to meet Congressman office and go to a townhall meeting in the last couple of months. If I go to advocacy day next month I will be taking vacation for another 2 days from my limited time. That reduces my time for India vacation this year. It is a big commitment to do even the events organized by IV where we just have to go. But then I think I am doing it for myself and not doing anyone any favor by spending my money and time for going there. At least these guys in IV are spending more time than me to organize these meetings and keeping our advocacy running despite their full time jobs. This is why I donate every month and appreciate them. I asked you to come to Washington DC because when you see all volunteers in person, you will appreciate everyone and see how difficult it is. Your questions will be answered as mine were in the past.

I agree with you about more communication. More volunteers should come on the thread and post. Even I have reduced my visits to IV. There is a lot of job pressure. It is a choice for me to spend my half day going to a town hall meeting this month and getting ready for it through calls or arguing with some random persons on the forums. It is impossible to find who is serious and who is not. It is each to his own. If someone is serious they will participate and figure out I guess.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by checkmet64 View Post
ps the tone of some of the responses on this forum is aimed at driving away people, again if we are convinced by our mission we should be more tolerant.
I spend more time visiting IV facebook page to get updates. It is much better. People behave carefully when their real name and social reputation is on the line if they were to post in wrong tone.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 11:46 AM
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Default I agree

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Originally Posted by psagarn View Post
I am sorry but you are right...I am not convinced. If, as an immigrant community, we are supposed to think about us (immigrant community) then why should I not just think about myself?

My stand is that in order to have some weight to what we say, we need to add numbers to our group. Increasing the H1B visa numbers is not necessarily a bad thing as it increases the output of US economy...this is the first part of the journey. Second part is converting the H1B holders into citizens and that has even better pay offs for US economy as people then start spending money on housing/cars instead of sending it back to India. The first part is taken care of by HR2131, we need numbers to convince law makers to act on second part. Part of the problem is that we are not a big enough group to make an impact (read a considerable vote bank). Once there are enough people in this mess and law makers see that with just one stroke of a brush they can win considerable votes, they will act on the second part. Not being able to do both parts in one go does not mean that we should not even start the journey. We can start it, achieve the first milestone..give it a break and then continue onto the second leg. Like I said this is my stand as of right now unless some one comes forward with any more reasons.
I agree, some wierd cooking is going on by presenting the fact in a little twisted way to make the bill look bad. Its not that bad. There is a need for more skilled immigrants and this bill does exactly to help that. Not only that there are so many checks and balances in the system now (unlike in the past any tom dick and harry can come and do whatever they want to) ,only the skilled workers who are genuinely required will only be able to come over. So with more of these visas will help and ONLY help the US economy. I believe the rest who are left and stuck in the GC backlog are one of the best that definately this country wants them to stay and help in contributing to the economy. This I am saying because if someone can survive the 2 recessions and still do better, there must be some skills that this group has.
Now if this bill is going to create a backlog is still questionable with added 55000 visa for STEM and no cap on countries. Its not that with the passage of the bill all of a sudden there will be in flux of 195000 immigrants in a day, it will happen gradually but at the same time with No country cap the line will be moving and with average wait of 5-8 years everyone will be getting their GCs ... and not to mention guys like us who are stuck will also get the relief from the backlog.
Having said that I would support the bill. Also about the responsibility for the immigrants , I will only be able the future immigrants when I am in a position to help and support which at this stage I am not.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 12:03 PM
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Default one problem with that

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Originally Posted by ronhira View Post
totally agree with you...... high skilled immigration is not, never was, @ getting more indians to US.... its @ creating a fair system.... fair system is one where everyone is treated equal.... if immigrant workers have less ability to change jobs then employers find hiring immigrant workers more attractive.... which means immigrant workers are at advantage of landing a job....... hurting US worker.....

we r seaking a system where immigrants get their green card quickly so we have the same ability to change jobs, and we r not creating disadvantage for US workers either..... the purpose of immigration system not so that immigration employers can have a business, or, small handful of companies can thrive on the labor of immigrant workforce, or, to get more people of certain ethnicity to US...... the purpose is fair and just system for everyone...... system that increases h1 visa without propotionately increasing green cards is not helping to create a fair and just system for anyone - US workers, immigrant workers and US economy. .... more h1s and less green cards will work great for small handful to employers..... but it will screw everyone else in the system.......
I agree but the only problem is the perspective.. now you want a fair system deeming that the demand is permanent.. but when the workforce problem is presented to the law makers , they are told and they percieve it has the temporary requirement for companies and need someway to recycle the visas. So when they look at it , they look at the way as when the visa expires the immigrants go back and fresh boat of new ones will come over , in reality it doesn't happen.. but these visas numbers are proposed using this exact same thought process. If you want the fair process , which is totally the contrary to the belief when the temp visas numbers are increased,you may need to change the very basic idea of getting immigrants from "temporary" to "permanent". I guess this is good for the debate but unfortunately thats a fact. As far as the "Just" and "Fair" system is concerned I think there are many checks and balances in place and more were tried to put into the system, but the same immigrant (WE) group opposes them and lobby against it and beat it down. So the question arises, do we really want a "Just" and "Fair" system? or are we the pawns of "again" the employers who had been exploiting us??????
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psaxena View Post
Its not that with the passage of the bill all of a sudden there will be in flux of 195000 immigrants in a day, it will happen gradually but at the same time with No country cap the line will be moving and with average wait of 5-8 years everyone will be getting their GCs ... and not to mention guys like us who are stuck will also get the relief from the backlog.
Can you explain mathematically how if this version of the bill is passed, by adding 195000 H1Bs and removing country quotas, people in EB3I can get greencard within 5-8 years?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 12:17 PM
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psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute
Default really 300years ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by imh1b View Post
So you want Congress to increase H1B quota now. And when backlog becomes as big as 300 years, we try again with all new H1bs to get more greencard. Next CIR maybe after 10 years. So we should wait until 10 years for round 2?

May I ask why do you even care to ask for reasons and be convinced. You are EB2 with 2010 PD. You will get your greencard soon. What is the latest prediction?
This 300 years is like a punch line , the same way obamacare was labeled as "Death panel" and what not. Do not use the scare tactics which are not going to happen. If there is a backlog that big I don't think anyone would be coming over and again demand and supply will kick in and lawmakers will be forced to do something about it.
Quite possible with the better economy and no recession the outcomes may be more positive, so I would suggest atleast something is better than nothing later. Why to oppose something for which we do not even know , whats gonna happen in the future.
Farsightedness and Planning for future is good, but its not advisable if there are many dominating variables in the equation to which you do not have any control on. At this time , what we get and which empowers to make us the dominating variable may be a better approach. A planned, phased, gated approach I think is the solution at this time,which this bill presents us.
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Result for psaxena:
Your position is 53193 in the Green Card Queue based on your Country of Chargeability "India", Priority Date "Aug-06" and Category "EB3" .
Your Expected Date of Adjudication is Sep, 2028.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2013, 12:19 PM
Senior Member
Priority Date
:
Aug-06
Category
:
EB3
I140 Mailed Date
:
10/01/2007
Chargeability
:
India
Processing Stage
:
I-485
I485 Mailed Date
:
07/30/2007
Compare
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 437
Blog Entries: 2
psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute psaxena has a reputation beyond repute
Default Hr 3012

Quote:
Originally Posted by imh1b View Post
Can you explain mathematically how if this version of the bill is passed, by adding 195000 H1Bs and removing country quotas, people in EB3I can get greencard within 5-8 years?
You can use the same calculation , that was used to promote the HR3012.
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--------------------------
Result for psaxena:
Your position is 53193 in the Green Card Queue based on your Country of Chargeability "India", Priority Date "Aug-06" and Category "EB3" .
Your Expected Date of Adjudication is Sep, 2028.
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