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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2014, 02:03 PM
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Default repeat argument for counting

This is another article in favor of not counting relatives.
It basically says it doesn't matter what congressman discussed or stated during debates while passing a law, what matters is actual written word in the law. And if the law is ambiguous, executive branch can reinterpret the law.

The Insightful Immigration Blog – Commentaries on Immigration Policy, Cases and Trends: TWO ACES UP PRESIDENT OBAMA’S SLEEVE TO ACHIEVE IMMIGRATION REFORM WITHOUT CONGRESS – NOT COUNTING FAMILY MEMBERS AND PAROLE IN PLACE
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2014, 04:08 PM
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IV : Should have a poll and see...I bet 99% of IV members want dependents to be removed from the count.

No point in shouting @ people who are requesting this.

Influence with 100k signatures/faxes before it's too late for EO.

I remember that when people were asking for H4 benefits , you guys were against it initially but later pursued it.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny2007 View Post
IV : Should have a poll and see...I bet 99% of IV members want dependents to be removed from the count.

No point in shouting @ people who are requesting this.

Influence with 100k signatures/faxes before it's too late for EO.

I remember that when people were asking for H4 benefits , you guys were against it initially but later pursued it.
Sunny,

IV was never against anything that helps the Immi community. You should just read between the lines!

Think this way: why would IV want go against such cases? Any stake? IV may have said that in some way may mean one of "not enough support", "not the right time", "busy with other things", etc.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2014, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by spicy_guy View Post
Sunny,

IV was never against anything that helps the Immi community. You should just read between the lines!

Think this way: why would IV want go against such cases? Any stake? IV may have said that in some way may mean one of "not enough support", "not the right time", "busy with other things", etc.
Hmm..Twisting facts ? We have to read between the heads ?
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2014, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny2007 View Post
Hmm..Twisting facts ? We have to read between the heads ?
If.... that is your take on it...
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2014, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny2007 View Post
Hmm..Twisting facts ? We have to read between the heads ?
I do not understand what the problem really is. If we do a poll here asking if people want dependent exemption change, I believe there would be 100% people supporting it not even 99%. But there is a difference between what we want and what we can get. IV's stand is that since it has talked to WH and DHS and know that this can not be done through EO, they are just informing us that it is the case. If just informing this makes IV against this measure then yes they can be considered as against it. However, if they were really against it, they would not have included it in the ASK list.

I know that are number of news reports and lawyers telling that it is possible. May be they have more information than what IV has or they still want to advertise it knowing that it can not be done. Whatever be the case, it is not important to what we are discussing. I know that the change that we so much want and when many others are saying that it can be done, when IV says it can not be done, we do not feel good about it. But please understand the difference between assessment and desire.

If you strongly feel that this can be done, there are many other online forums where people are saying that it can be done and taking actions what they believe is the right action.

Other than this item, there are other items that IV has outlined as part of EO. If you think that they are valuable, you can take actions here what IV suggests.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin80 View Post
This is another article in favor of not counting relatives.
It basically says it doesn't matter what congressman discussed or stated during debates while passing a law, what matters is actual written word in the law. And if the law is ambiguous, executive branch can reinterpret the law.

The Insightful Immigration Blog – Commentaries on Immigration Policy, Cases and Trends: TWO ACES UP PRESIDENT OBAMA’S SLEEVE TO ACHIEVE IMMIGRATION REFORM WITHOUT CONGRESS – NOT COUNTING FAMILY MEMBERS AND PAROLE IN PLACE
Thanks for sharing these notes/articles. These arguments were presented already. But we appreciate sharing positive valuable information. Please continue to share any other supporting information because it always helps to provide as many angles and arguments as possible. We have not given up but need everyone to understand the reality. We need credible and reasonable arguments. Just saying "take a poll and 99% IV members will say this" or "idea cannot stop whose time has come" sounds too emotional, phony and immature. We cannot go and say this to the folks who genuinely wants to help.

We welcome more positive arguments and ideas in favor of exemption and recapture. And have been asking for this for sometime. But again, please try to be mature about arguments in favor. IV members are not members of Congress, so such a poll adds no value to a legal question.

And BTW, it does matter what sponsoring Senator said. The context and intent of the law has high significance even in the court of law. Because they anticipate backlash and attacks from the other side, the Administration has already said that they will only do things that are within the existing law.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 11:06 AM
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Default Not a fair language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator2 View Post
You are amazing. So your response is quoting some adage to imply that Administration wants to do recapture and exemption of dependents, but somehow IV is resisting it. I think we've seen many different type of people on these forums but never came across an idiot such as you.
Dear Administrator 2

This is not a fair language by you.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 01:31 PM
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I have read through all the comments.
Here is my understanding - IV is not saying they do not support such a change. All they are saying is that we believe it is not possible within the context of the law. Even if the President were to do such a thing, as the cited blogs and articles mention, in IV's opinion, there is a high likelihood that it may be challenged by Congress and possibly overturned.

Now imagine, yourself going to the person X (someone in power) and telling him to do something, because you believe it is possible, he says Ok, turns to his internal legal team which determines that what you told him is wrong. At that point, does the person X trust you? Trust you enough that next time you come and ask him for something else, he will honor your request, or even bother listening to you?

I do believe that skilled immigrants should have a united front. If you do not believe that IV, as an organization is supporting the causes you believe in, then you are free to go support someone else who does, but for the sake of keeping a united front, please do not bad mouth someone just because they do not have the same point of view as you on a minor issue in a bigger battle. Just my 2 cents.

Also, informed discussion between ourselves is great. But guess what, it does not do Shit to convince Congresspeople and Senators to support our cause. Neither do new articles. Only thing that works in meeting them face to face, day in and day out so that they know this is a real problem.

Here is what corporations are spending on lobbying. Why? Because, they know its effective!
https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

Going to DC, organizing events, takes money. If you cannot volunteer your time, or your money for this effort, the least you can do is not bad mouth the organization, that is doing something.

Inviting more personal attacks.....
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdgtgeek View Post
I have read through all the comments.
Here is my understanding - IV is not saying they do not support such a change. All they are saying is that we believe it is not possible within the context of the law. Even if the President were to do such a thing, as the cited blogs and articles mention, in IV's opinion, there is a high likelihood that it may be challenged by Congress and possibly overturned.

Now imagine, yourself going to the person X (someone in power) and telling him to do something, because you believe it is possible, he says Ok, turns to his internal legal team which determines that what you told him is wrong. At that point, does the person X trust you? Trust you enough that next time you come and ask him for something else, he will honor your request, or even bother listening to you?

I do believe that skilled immigrants should have a united front. If you do not believe that IV, as an organization is supporting the causes you believe in, then you are free to go support someone else who does, but for the sake of keeping a united front, please do not bad mouth someone just because they do not have the same point of view as you on a minor issue in a bigger battle. Just my 2 cents.

Also, informed discussion between ourselves is great. But guess what, it does not do Shit to convince Congresspeople and Senators to support our cause. Neither do new articles. Only thing that works in meeting them face to face, day in and day out so that they know this is a real problem.

Here is what corporations are spending on lobbying. Why? Because, they know its effective!
https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

Going to DC, organizing events, takes money. If you cannot volunteer your time, or your money for this effort, the least you can do is not bad mouth the organization, that is doing something.

Inviting more personal attacks.....
+10. Well put out!
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdgtgeek View Post
I have read through all the comments.
Here is my understanding - IV is not saying they do not support such a change. All they are saying is that we believe it is not possible within the context of the law. Even if the President were to do such a thing, as the cited blogs and articles mention, in IV's opinion, there is a high likelihood that it may be challenged by Congress and possibly overturned.

Now imagine, yourself going to the person X (someone in power) and telling him to do something, because you believe it is possible, he says Ok, turns to his internal legal team which determines that what you told him is wrong. At that point, does the person X trust you? Trust you enough that next time you come and ask him for something else, he will honor your request, or even bother listening to you?

I do believe that skilled immigrants should have a united front. If you do not believe that IV, as an organization is supporting the causes you believe in, then you are free to go support someone else who does, but for the sake of keeping a united front, please do not bad mouth someone just because they do not have the same point of view as you on a minor issue in a bigger battle. Just my 2 cents.

Also, informed discussion between ourselves is great. But guess what, it does not do Shit to convince Congresspeople and Senators to support our cause. Neither do new articles. Only thing that works in meeting them face to face, day in and day out so that they know this is a real problem.

Here is what corporations are spending on lobbying. Why? Because, they know its effective!
https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

Going to DC, organizing events, takes money. If you cannot volunteer your time, or your money for this effort, the least you can do is not bad mouth the organization, that is doing something.

Inviting more personal attacks.....

I am surprised to see the number of personal attacks and derogatory accusations among the members. Heard a lot about another website dealing with immigration and happen to visit recently. They have more meaningful discussions referring to more up to date news.. and we here are cursing each other. Quite soon ppl will drop out of this site and organization.. Admins and leaders, please take a note of this.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjonie View Post
I am surprised to see the number of personal attacks and derogatory accusations among the members. Heard a lot about another website dealing with immigration and happen to visit recently. They have more meaningful discussions referring to more up to date news.. and we here are cursing each other. Quite soon ppl will drop out of this site and organization.. Admins and leaders, please take a note of this.
I do not see anything person in the above write up. Its just informational. Please do not raise a flag it as personal.

Better yet, just leave this discussion here and focus on other meaningful things.
How about donating and helping IV?
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 02:35 PM
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In the current scenario, there are several possibilities. I don't think an EO will be a straight forward option and in politics anything can change at the last moment.

The conservative democrats are not going to be sanguine about the the executive order, especially Mark Pryor from Arkansas and Kay Hagan from North Carolina. EO in the short term can rattle them and possibly these folks don't make it.

The other way to look at even though some of these democrats from the conservative states like Arkansas, Alaska, North Carolina and Louisiana may have an angst and lose, it may be all good from 2016 presidential elections as Democrats will have a lot of say where they can say --they actually did make a change and supported immigration and get lot of latino support.

Another thing who knows may be that there is already some last minute negotiations going on where republicans from the house agree to get the bill considered after they come back from the recess and this will all put an end to an EO and a win-win from politics stand point--

Right now we are in a state of oblivion with whether EO will really take place and if it does what it will have and what it won't. I am sure IV involved in the background has more information than any of us and there certainly are hurdles.

The question is what next ---I expect IV to at least put some action items/next steps where we can reinvirogate forum readers/donors/volunteers to work on something. I know in the past on this forum we have heard --the Signature thing does not work and it will be a waste of time. The question is that there does not seem to be any concrete next steps and hence the oblivion and theories continue.

So would request IV to maybe close this thread and start a new thread with a set of action items and that will be cordially supported.

Cheers
Shining
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicy_guy View Post
I do not see anything person in the above write up. Its just informational. Please do not raise a flag it as personal.

Better yet, just leave this discussion here and focus on other meaningful things.
How about donating and helping IV?
I did not say the above write-up, Obviously you haven't seen the rest of posts and drama.Well, as you said I am leaving it here and continue with the other suggestions you recommended. Cheers !
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2014, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shining View Post
In the current scenario, there are several possibilities. I don't think an EO will be a straight forward option and in politics anything can change at the last moment.

The conservative democrats are not going to be sanguine about the the executive order, especially Mark Pryor from Arkansas and Kay Hagan from North Carolina. EO in the short term can rattle them and possibly these folks don't make it.

The other way to look at even though some of these democrats from the conservative states like Arkansas, Alaska, North Carolina and Louisiana may have an angst and lose, it may be all good from 2016 presidential elections as Democrats will have a lot of say where they can say --they actually did make a change and supported immigration and get lot of latino support.

Another thing who knows may be that there is already some last minute negotiations going on where republicans from the house agree to get the bill considered after they come back from the recess and this will all put an end to an EO and a win-win from politics stand point--

Right now we are in a state of oblivion with whether EO will really take place and if it does what it will have and what it won't. I am sure IV involved in the background has more information than any of us and there certainly are hurdles.

The question is what next ---I expect IV to at least put some action items/next steps where we can reinvirogate forum readers/donors/volunteers to work on something. I know in the past on this forum we have heard --the Signature thing does not work and it will be a waste of time. The question is that there does not seem to be any concrete next steps and hence the oblivion and theories continue.

So would request IV to maybe close this thread and start a new thread with a set of action items and that will be cordially supported.

Cheers
Shining
I second that. I trust IV with communicating our issues up the political command in Congress and WH.
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