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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:39 PM
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More on why economic arguement is weak: Is there aresearch to suggest how US economy will perform if we stop H1B program or stop EB greencards? Maybe we just continue EB greencards for EB1 and EB2 and not EB3. Now let's make a case for EB3 and prove that EB3 is also engine for growth and they are best and the brightest.

So if we have proved that more H1Bs and EB greencards increase US economic growth, then does that mean, we double or triple H1Bs and greencards each year and then US economy will increase proportionally? if yes, then how about making it unlimited.

The family based immigration has the same problem. They hide behind the 'family ties' and 'family values' argument and increase people on government handouts every year. Nobody says that because any politician saying that will be seen against 'family values' but it is a known fact. So basically the burden of FB visa and H1B visa aka outsourcing visa brings down the EB visa issue. And that is a sad thing for all of us. Compound that problem with undocumented immigration and apathy among EB community and we have a real smelly and diseased diarrhea we are dealing with.
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
economic argument is weak and needs to be reexamined in my opinion. There is no research with numbers to prove that. Most I have seen is anecdotal. Quoting a snapdeal founder or someone here and there cannot help make a generalized statement. Accept it that most H1Bs are low tiered H1Bs coming from unknown colleges and basically do grunt work. The top tiered H1Bs are the ones either coming out of top colleges around the world or in USA. They end up going to top companies and innovate. This does not mean low tiered H1Bs do not go to top companies. They do go there either directly or through a consultant but they only do low end work.
Ok. Why don't you do the research and get it published in a respectable journal then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
So when you want the Snapdeal founder to get a greencard, you have to look at his background. Is there any research to suggest that a low ranked college graduate doing low end H1B work has opened an attractive startup? or maybe this is simple: how many people in the queue after getting greencard start companies and employ more than 10 US citizens? Do we have a data on that? It is 10% or 50% or less than 1%? We do not know.
Economic argument we use is great because lawmakers are being bombarded with the same argument from companies arguing for more H1's (with thick stacks of bullshit "research").

Our argument is simple - an "innovator" cannot perform upto their potential without complete job mobility and freedom to start a company if they so choose.

We do talk about H1-B abuse and about how getting paid low wages by abusive employers causes a large human and economic toll - by driving down wages for US workers. We do talk about how abusive employers prefer H1-B workers to Americans.

Note how our message above targets both the Human and Economic costs of the abusive system. Unlike you, we have had years to refine our message and know that it works.


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Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
We should be working with some research organization to fund and conduct a study in this area so that we have better data to back us up. Why should so called experts like Ron Heros and wadhwanis be only doing research in this area. Why not immigrants who work in research fields actually take up this research and publish?
Again, go ahead and publish. If you need support, please feel free to reach out. There is no shortage of people on the web who want to add to my (and my fellow volunteers) task list, but are unwilling to do anything themselves.

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Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
Likewise the emotional argument sounds like sobbing and asking for sympathy. The fact of life is just the opposite. The H1B immigrant's earning is much higher than average US citizen earning. They are more educated and live a better life. If there is a big emotional problem, why only 100 people out of 1 million showed up? Why IV does not have several million dollar budget to lobby? Why people cannot donate? The reality is that greencard issue lacks awareness and people have apathy.
By it's self the emotional argument is useless, that is why we pair it with the economic argument.

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Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
In my opinion it is more of a fairness and justice issue that economic or emotional. By that I mean, workers need to be treated fairly and given equal wages as natives. There should be better protection laws and a system where workers are the real stakeholders and not lawyers and companies. The system needs to be equal to all. Currently there is discrimination against people from India and lets call it out clearly. ROW get unfair advantage. This was ok 30 years ago when Indians were not coming in large numbers so that laws were ok then. But with the shift with time, laws should also change.
Ok. If you feel like you can articulate the argument - you should make the argument when you visit your lawmaker's office(s) like usharp is doing.

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Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
The focus should be eliminating country limits and anti exploitation and protection laws for immigrants. Our community has slipped into their own personal ask lists based on their selfish needs and that has ruined a unified effort. Things like H4EAD, I140EAD, and other similar fixes are bullshit fixes because they do not fix the root cause and the real problem. This is why I said we people lack awareness and have no idea what to do when we sign an online petition or send a spam email.
Indeed. Please feel free to do something about the situation like usharp is.
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by waitingnwaiting View Post
More on why economic arguement is weak: Is there aresearch to suggest how US economy will perform if we stop H1B program or stop EB greencards? Maybe we just continue EB greencards for EB1 and EB2 and not EB3. Now let's make a case for EB3 and prove that EB3 is also engine for growth and they are best and the brightest.

So if we have proved that more H1Bs and EB greencards increase US economic growth, then does that mean, we double or triple H1Bs and greencards each year and then US economy will increase proportionally? if yes, then how about making it unlimited.

The family based immigration has the same problem. They hide behind the 'family ties' and 'family values' argument and increase people on government handouts every year. Nobody says that because any politician saying that will be seen against 'family values' but it is a known fact. So basically the burden of FB visa and H1B visa aka outsourcing visa brings down the EB visa issue. And that is a sad thing for all of us. Compound that problem with undocumented immigration and apathy among EB community and we have a real smelly and diseased diarrhea we are dealing with.
Lawmakers and their offices are bombarded with research. The arguments we make are:
  1. Simple and easy to make
  2. Make the point that both us (backlogged H1's), the constituents and the economy will benifit from HR.213
  3. True.

Also, we do talk about the fairness argument, but fairness in a vacuum will not work - there needs to be more to it.
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by uhsarp View Post
I have the appt scheduled for later in the day on 7/1. My question about the ROW is that currently, ROW folks get their GCs faster. So they can innovate by starting companies (Even though we are still in the waiting line). From a Congressman's perspective, they don't care about the citizenship of these folks (If they are from India/china or ROW) and who gets the GCs faster??

Let me know if you would like me to rephrase my question.


Your intent is good but your phrasing of the argument sounds more like a frog in a well that doesn't want others to do better than you. The way you have presented (see in bold above) it seems like saying others are getting ahead and they can contribute, and that is wrong.

Another way to say this would be to keeping it simple, which is consistent with the overall intent -
  • Right now some folks in the system get preferential treatment.
  • H.R.213 will ensure that everyone is treated equally on first come first serve basis, which is the most American concept.
  • EB green card system is based of the talent, skill, education, innovation etc. But under the system the EB green cards are allocated based on country of birth, as if country of birth is a skill.
  • We are not asking for handout or preferential treatment, we are asking for fairness

You want to utilize your face time with the lawmaker's office judiciously. Try to avoid mentioning anything about H-1B or L-1 visa system unless asked or specifically mentioned by the Staffer or Representative. But if they mention it, then we are never shy of being honest in attacking H1 and L1 system and calling it Federal Government funded bonded worker program. Congress created this system. We are victims, and so are US workers. Congress has the power to change the system. They can start with removing per-country limits. But overall, if in any system an employee to bound to an employer for long period of time then employer will have more control over those employees. That creates wrong incentive for bad employers to hire more immigrants on H1 visa over US workers."

Truth is the best defense in any argument. So always keep in mind that:
1.) You are not meeting with lawmaker to defend the flawed system
2.) You need to argue in favor of H1/L1 system
3.) You should not have to defend or explain Disney or Southern California.

If anytime H1 or L1 issues comes up, or if someone mentions Disney or Southern California, never ever be scared to attack H1 system by saying that Congress created that system and the current Congress is protecting that system by not reforming it. The truth is that we are the victim of the system, and that is why we are asking for this reform to remove per country limits. Also say that - you don't get up every morning saying that "today I want to be exploited or today I want to take someone's job or today I want to drive down wages. Congress created this system. You have the power to change it, lets start with this bill H.R.213"

If it comes to it, also say this -
In his book 'Wealth of Nations' Adam Smith said that - in a room full of people, if handful of people are less equal that others, that means no one is equal to anyone else.

This means - in a marketplace of 110 million workers if 1 million immigrant workers have less rights, then no one is equal to anyone else. And that is how the current H1 and L1 system ensure less rights for a million people bonded to the same employer for decades, which distorts the job market. And this is the real cause of Disney and Southern California issue, which is just the tip of the ice burg.

In a system when some people have less right (H1/L1/pending green card workers), then those people will be more attractive to employer because employers will have more control over them. But these people with less rights (H1/L1/pending green card workers) will be exploited. And as a by-product of such a system, the people with more rights (US workers) will be discriminated against - which is what you see at Disney and Southern CA.

Conventional wisdom will have it that in any system people with more rights will land more opportunities, so if immigrants have less rights, then somehow US workers will be at advantage. But in the real world, it is totally counter-intuitive where immigrants with less rights are more attractive to the employers, which is why they are more likely to land a job than US workers. That is why there were 233,000 H1 petitions filed within a week. If you extrapolate 233,000 in a week, it comes to 10 million jobs. Ask the staffer or Representative or Senator - Are there 10 million jobs in American waiting to be filled in? If not, then the 233,000 H1 petitions in a week only signify one thing - the greed of WORST kind of employers to profit from people with less rights. If that is what Congress wants, then lets increase H1 to 10 million and not care for green cards or rights of the people. But also, please don't forget that every time Congress increases H1 visas, you see only see the Disney and Southern CA as a side-effect where US workers are discriminated against.

In the end, the real issue is "RIGHTS OF IMMIGRANTS". RIGHTS and FREEDOM have always been at the heart if every struggle, and this is no different. People want green cards because green card ensure certain rights and freedom.

If anyone in truly interested to fix the system then please focus on giving immigrants the basic rights - including the right to change employer with as much ease as others in the marketplace. In the current system, these rights come only with a Green Card. But no where in the law it says that immigrants on H1/L1 can only change jobs with as much ease as others unless they have green cards.

That is why, as a first step, for fixing the system, we are asking you to please look at the facts and not get swayed by anti-facts spread by the well oiled machinery of tech companies and immigration lawyers.

This is not about immigrant workers v/s US workers. This is about handful of large tech businesses and everyone else including, US workers, immigrant workers, society, economy and potential small businesses that could be started by people who will start their companies after they get their green cards.
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hil3182 View Post
Your argument is good.

Another way to phrase it is:

1. Companies and lobbyists are running around saying high skilled immigrants (i.e H1-B's ) create jobs and are a net positive to the U.S. economy.
2. 60% of H1-B's are from backlogged countries and they face lengthy delays for their GC's without which they cannot start companies and help the US economy.
3. With HR.213 everyone gets their GC in a reasonable period thus unleashing a lot of underused potential in the U.S. economy.

While the economic argument is powerful, please don't underestimate the impact of the personal argument. Please share your personal story with the staffer and talk about how the backlog has impacted you and your family.

The reason we emphathse the economic argument here is because people tend to talk only about their personal situation and not go into How the fix will benefit the broader society. Your personal story is what will motivate the staffer to talk to the congressman and the economic side is what he will talk to the congressman about - so both are important.

Thank you for doing your part.
Cool. Also the meeting is directly with Congressman Chris Stewart. Hopefully we will get him to become a co-sponsor.
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  #171 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 03:02 PM
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"So when you want the Snapdeal founder to get a greencard, you have to look at his background. Is there any research to suggest that a low ranked college graduate doing low end H1B work has opened an attractive startup? or maybe this is simple: how many people in the queue after getting greencard start companies and employ more than 10 US citizens? Do we have a data on that? It is 10% or 50% or less than 1%? We do not know"

Snapdeals founder background is that he did some courses from U penn/Wharton. I donot think Snapdeal is an innovative company - in my opinion Snapdeal is lowend in the innovative spectrum.

I did my masters program from a university which you might consider low ranked - University of missouri - Rolla, I have been waiting for 4 years now to take ownership of the startup i started ( so far i had to request a friend who is a greencard holder who runs it).

Your assumption about "low end work" and "low ranked" universities is BS in this case. Specifically because out of 100 Jobs 90 wont apply to our situation, Even worse for smaller startups. If you are not even eligible to apply to 90% of the Jobs - how do you extrapolate the message about the abilities of the individual and in effect conclude that she/he does low end work?
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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by uhsarp View Post
Cool. Also the meeting is directly with Congressman Chris Stewart. Hopefully we will get him to become a co-sponsor.
As you can see above, there are many arguments you can make in favor of HR.213.

Please pick the ones you are most comfortable with for you initial pitch. Try to keep the interaction conversational. If you are successful, the arguments you missed in your initial pitch will come up naturally.

If it isn't too late I suggest you take a printout of the summary page and the co-sponsors of HR213 with you.

Good luck!!!
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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2015, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by hil3182 View Post
As you can see above, there are many arguments you can make in favor of HR.213.

Please pick the ones you are most comfortable with for you initial pitch. Try to keep the interaction conversational. If you are successful, the arguments you missed in your initial pitch will come up naturally.

If it isn't too late I suggest you take a printout of the summary page and the co-sponsors of HR213 with you.

Good luck!!!
Thank you very much!! And I did print the HR213 bill page with the Co-sponsor list. Rep. Jason Chaffetz (the sponsor of this bill) knows Rep. Chris Stewart very well. In fact they represent bordering districts.

Also, Thanks Administrator2. This exercise of me meeting the Congressmen is a good thing not just to get his support for HR 213 but to establish a relationship with his office so that we can lend our voices on future issues instead of laying low like a couch potato and complaining that the system is broken. Also, I'll get to learn something about advocacy!
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  #174 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 12:13 AM
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Rep. Chris Stewart's agreed to support. But I think I have to follow up with him over the next couple of weeks to ensure that he signs up as a Co-sponsor.
I'm just curious. What's the process for a Rep. to Co-sponsor an existing bill?
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by uhsarp View Post
Rep. Chris Stewart's agreed to support. But I think I have to follow up with him over the next couple of weeks to ensure that he signs up as a Co-sponsor.
I'm just curious. What's the process for a Rep. to Co-sponsor an existing bill?
Administrator2 is the real expert on the finer points of legislative procedure.

My recollection from Administrator2's discourse on the issue is the procedure is paper based. The congressman signs a piece of paper and sends it to Chaffetzs office. Chaffetz must then sign the same paper again and send it to another office.

Chaffetz can choose to not sign the piece of paper sent to him if he doesn't want that particular congressman's name on his bill. Chaffetz can also choose to delay signing the paper for other strategic reasons. However, the staffer will generally tell you when they sent the paper to Chaffetzs office.

Please continue to followup. Whether you succeed or fail to get the sponsorship, it is important that you tried. A certain percentage of congressmen will commit right away, a certain will commit after a few months of nagging and a certain percentage will never commit.

Thank you for your good work!!!
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  #176 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 02:36 PM
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Below is what I got from my district congresswoman. I don't understand when she says not on the committee. Can senior members here decode it ?

Quote:

Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 213, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2015. I appreciate the time you have taken to inform me of your thoughts on this issue.

As you may know, H.R. 213 was introduced by Representative Jason Chaffetz from Utah on January 8, 2015, and was referred to the House Judiciary Committee. This bill would remove the caps placed on countries for employment-based immigration and would increase the caps placed on countries for family-based immigration, from seven percent to fifteen percent of the total number of family-sponsored visas. This bill would also implement per country distribution rules for EB-2 and EB-3 visas. High-skilled employees help spur economic development and create thousands of well-paying jobs for Americans across the country. Our current immigration policy is insufficient to meet the needs that prospective high-skilled immigrants fulfill and we are slowly losing entrepreneurs and innovators to competitors overseas. As Congress continues, I will look for ways to improve our visa programs in a manner that promotes job creation and bolsters the U.S. economy. While I am not on this committee, please know that I will certainly keep your thoughts in mind should this bill pass out of committee and come before the full House of Representatives for a vote.

Thank you again for contacting me. Your thoughts and opinions are of critical importance to me as I work to represent Indiana's 5th District in Congress. I sincerely appreciate your comments and look forward to hearing from you in the future.
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 02:38 PM
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This is response from Susan Brooks Indiana congresswoman.
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  #178 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 02:58 PM
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Below is what I got from my district congresswoman. I don't understand when she says not on the committee. Can senior members here decode it ?
She is saying that she isn't on judiciary so there is nothing she can do.

A good response will cover the following points:
  • Thank the congressman for their reply
  • Mention that you are a constituent
  • Mention how this issue affects your and your family's life
  • Mention that you would appreciate her taking another look at the bill with a view to co-sponsoring it
  • Mention that the reason you are asking for co-sponsorship is you have been informed that getting co-sponsors is key to getting a vote for this bill.
  • If you have friends (and their dependents) in her district in the same situation, mention that you personally know "x" people in her district who are affected by this.
  • Tell her she can reach out to Congressman's Chaffetz's office about details of this bill if they have any questions (if she is a Republican - Lofgren's office if she is a Democrat).
  • Thank her again for her support even though she isn't on the appropriate committee.

If you want to post a draft response on this forum, we will be happy to review it for you. I am sure others could use your draft if they get similar responses from their congressman's office.
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  #179 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gopal008 View Post
Below is what I got from my district congresswoman. I don't understand when she says not on the committee. Can senior members here decode it ?
I got the exact same, word-for-word, response from Congresswoman Brooks' office.

I assume you are in Indianapolis. I'll PM you and see if we can get together and go to her office, or to one of her open-houses, and try again.
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  #180 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2015, 10:59 PM
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I got the exact same, word-for-word, response from Congresswoman Brooks' office.

I assume you are in Indianapolis. I'll PM you and see if we can get together and go to her office, or to one of her open-houses, and try again.
Yes, that is a good idea. Team up with gopal008 and pay a visit to the local office together. Tell them what hil3182 suggested. Build a relationship with the local staffers and then continue to follow-up with them till you get co sponsorship of the office. Persistent follow-up is going to be the key.
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