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  #1126 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by max4438 View Post
I do not think HR213 has much chance of becoming the law - it has to pass house, pass senate and then signed.

We suffer daily from this issue that sometimes (me included) forget to put ourselves in the shoes of the other side.

I'll draw a very crude analogy recognizable to many Indians. In India, what if all of a sudden people from Bangladesh, Nepal, China, Bhutan started coming in and taking high paying private sector jobs for a 6 year basis. And then these foreigners started protesting for permanent citizenship. They can protest all they want, meet with Indian MPs, do dharna in Delhi, but the fact is that the Indian citizens and government will be appalled by the foreigners taking jobs and creating extra competition. And these are not low paying jobs, mind you, these are jobs that are considered good (lets put it Rs. 15 lac + per year). Will you ever allow this to happen in India as citizens of that country? Probably not.

Now these are the same sentiments that run deep over here and rightly so. Chances are that we will feel the same if were on the other side.

These are the sentiments we should be aware of and which makes me believe that HR213 or any other provision will never pass. We have come so far on our work visas because of businesses who want cheap labor and know how to work the system to a certain degree.

IV's intentions are right and I applaud the hard work being done by each member. But if I were on the other side of the debate, IV would be no different than the foreigners who sit at Jantar Mantar in Delhi.
Let me straighten some things out for you.

- Every bill has to pass the house, senate and signed by the President.

- Replica bill of HR 213 , passed the house 389-15 in 2011, got a nod from 99/100 senators and is a concept that the WH wholeheartedly supports. If there is any sentiment I see here, it is of fairness. What sentiment are you talking about?

- US is not India. This country is built by and for immigrants. Which is why over 1M people are welcomed here. I am not even going to respond to your hypothetical scenario of immigrants from Bhutan etc. coming to India

-We are not temporary workers anymore, we are folks with an approved immigrant petition, and are waiting for a visa number. If I was born in Nepal or Bhutan, I would have gotten it within 6 months.

- And, so HR 213 has no chance. So what? Are you proposing a solution?

For once, let's behave like we deserve something.
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  #1127 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max4438 View Post
I do not think HR213 has much chance of becoming the law - it has to pass house, pass senate and then signed.

We suffer daily from this issue that sometimes (me included) forget to put ourselves in the shoes of the other side.

I'll draw a very crude analogy recognizable to many Indians. In India, what if all of a sudden people from Bangladesh, Nepal, China, Bhutan started coming in and taking high paying private sector jobs for a 6 year basis. And then these foreigners started protesting for permanent citizenship. They can protest all they want, meet with Indian MPs, do dharna in Delhi, but the fact is that the Indian citizens and government will be appalled by the foreigners taking jobs and creating extra competition. And these are not low paying jobs, mind you, these are jobs that are considered good (lets put it Rs. 15 lac + per year). Will you ever allow this to happen in India as citizens of that country? Probably not.

Now these are the same sentiments that run deep over here and rightly so. Chances are that we will feel the same if were on the other side.

These are the sentiments we should be aware of and which makes me believe that HR213 or any other provision will never pass. We have come so far on our work visas because of businesses who want cheap labor and know how to work the system to a certain degree.

IV's intentions are right and I applaud the hard work being done by each member. But if I were on the other side of the debate, IV would be no different than the foreigners who sit at Jantar Mantar in Delhi.
You are entitled to your opinion and these are good point that you made, but its not a accurate comparison between immigration in India and in the US. Most of us have been here for more then 10 years ( its my 14th year running and I'm still on a VISA). I'm sure if you live in India for over 10 years it will be a different story. Foreigners who sit outside Jantar Mantar are probably not MBA. Engineering, Medical, Accounting etc graduates. They probably don't own a house in India and probably haven't contributed to Indian taxes or social benefits. And I'm tired of people referring to us as "cheap labor" - there is nothing cheap about how much I earn. Probably more then my next American counterpart and I know many fellow Indian counterparts who earn the more or less the same as local "citizens". I think its time to call the "cheap labor" reference as a myth - at least for folks who have decent experience in this country.
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  #1128 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vikidisi View Post
Let me straighten some things out for you.

- Every bill has to pass the house, senate and signed by the President.

- Replica bill of HR 213 , passed the house 389-15 in 2011, got a nod from 99/100 senators and is a concept that the WH wholeheartedly supports. If there is any sentiment I see here, it is of fairness. What sentiment are you talking about?

- US is not India. This country is built by and for immigrants. Which is why over 1M people are welcomed here. I am not even going to respond to your hypothetical scenario of immigrants from Bhutan etc. coming to India

-We are not temporary workers anymore, we are folks with an approved immigrant petition, and are waiting for a visa number. If I was born in Nepal or Bhutan, I would have gotten it within 6 months.

- And, so HR 213 has no chance. So what? Are you proposing a solution?

For once, let's behave like we deserve something.
I think we already tried the same bill in 2010 and back then it was called HR 3012.

We came to know that it just need one anti-immigrant Senator in Senate to put a hold on the bill and put it down.

Don't forget that Grassley and Sessions are still there and waiting for this thing to hit senate.

Also we know that what happened to CIR, which was passed in Senate First and then went to House and they didn't even put it for vote even after the level of political pressure to put this for voting.

Even after we saw all these and we still think that HR 213 will pass, I am missing something only you guys are aware of. Is that the case?
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  #1129 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tracka View Post
I think we already tried the same bill in 2010 and back then it was called HR 3012.

We came to know that it just need one anti-immigrant Senator in Senate to put a hold on the bill and put it down.

Don't forget that Grassley and Sessions are still there and waiting for this thing to hit senate.

Also we know that what happened to CIR, which was passed in Senate First and then went to House and they didn't even put it for vote even after the level of political pressure to put this for voting.

Even after we saw all these and we still think that HR 213 will pass, I am missing something only you guys are aware of. Is that the case?
And Lets say some Miracle happened and it passes both House and Senate.
Do you think Obama will put his sign on HR 213.

His first Question will be "WTF, Where are you legalizing the Undocumented in this Immigration Bill, I am not signing it until you have something in this bill for undocumented"
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  #1130 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:37 PM
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I can see why there is all this HR.213 negativity.

It is because a lot of people who benefited from the VB (like me) are scared that IV is ignoring the EO while going after HR.213.

I am sure there are also people who did not benefit from the VB movement scared that IV has lost focus of the bigger picture and have become obsessed with the VB.


I think it will be best if we all took a step back and gave IV the benefit of the doubt... They know what they are doing.
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  #1131 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by stuckinline View Post
I can see why there is all this HR.213 negativity.

It is because a lot of people who benefited from the VB (like me) are scared that IV is ignoring the EO while going after HR.213.

I am sure there are also people who did not benefit from the VB movement scared that IV has lost focus of the bigger picture and have become obsessed with the VB.


I think it will be best if we all took a step back and gave IV the benefit of the doubt... They know what they are doing.
Actually No.

Its because their lawyers are telling them HR bill will not pass and politics is bad and so on. They want them to focus on lawsuit, sent online petitions and probably do a lobby with lawyers as their boss. By trying to reduce IV efforts, and failed HR bill, lawyers and companies will win as always. Immigrants will stay in temp status for eternity.

EO is a done deal. No effort is needed. Only lawyers are scaring people about it. I would be interested in finding out who was behind the Visa Bulletin change last month? Did consulting companies or other lobbying group try to lobby against bulletin?
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  #1132 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:52 PM
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I think we already tried the same bill in 2010 and back then it was called HR 3012.

We came to know that it just need one anti-immigrant Senator in Senate to put a hold on the bill and put it down.

Don't forget that Grassley and Sessions are still there and waiting for this thing to hit senate.

Also we know that what happened to CIR, which was passed in Senate First and then went to House and they didn't even put it for vote even after the level of political pressure to put this for voting.

Even after we saw all these and we still think that HR 213 will pass, I am missing something only you guys are aware of. Is that the case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracka View Post
And Lets say some Miracle happened and it passes both House and Senate.
Do you think Obama will put his sign on HR 213.

His first Question will be "WTF, Where are you legalizing the Undocumented in this Immigration Bill, I am not signing it until you have something in this bill for undocumented"

This has been discussed at length here so I'll find a post from Admin that describes everything but let me see if I can explain a few things briefly.

- Grassley eventually removed his hold. Check this link

- Do you think IV is pushing for this bill not knowing that Sessions and Grassley are sitting in the Senate? IV folks know what they are doing. It is very convenient to point to something and then use that as a point of failure. Classic example was the whole Dependent / Recapture brouhaha. IV was the only organization that kept saying it won't happen. We focus on what's possible. HR 213 is. Grassley & Sessions won't let a bill pass that adds a single new immigrant to the country. This bill is not about immigration, it is about fairness and rights.

- If you are going to use the failure of CIR as a reason to not push for any other bill. I have nothing to say to you except please research deep into why CIR failed.

- And I hear a lot of things like "no chance" , "won't pass" etc. Ok. Do you have a counter proposal?
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  #1133 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by eastindia View Post
Actually No.

Its because their lawyers are telling them HR bill will not pass and politics is bad and so on. They want them to focus on lawsuit, sent online petitions and probably do a lobby with lawyers as their boss. By trying to reduce IV efforts, and failed HR bill, lawyers and companies will win as always. Immigrants will stay in temp status for eternity.

EO is a done deal. No effort is needed. Only lawyers are scaring people about it. I would be interested in finding out who was behind the Visa Bulletin change last month? Did consulting companies or other lobbying group try to lobby against bulletin?
Very nicely put. Also quoting below the post from Admin that sums up in one statement how everyone is getting screwed and still want to run to the lawyers. As if they are saviors.

Quote:
For those of us who are stuck in backlogs, there is ONLY one side. You may not realize it, some may not understand it, but there is only one side. EVERYONE, that means EVERYONE out their is working to screw you. Lawyers, Employers, Companies, US companies, Indian Companies, you name it. You may not understand it, but that doesn't change the facts.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory? Sure does. But all you have to do is come to one advocacy event by IV and walk the halls of Congress. Once you meet with congressmen, staffers, and folks from the administration. This will all become clear to you. Many people report that an IV advocacy event is a life changing experience for them.
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  #1134 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tracka View Post
And Lets say some Miracle happened and it passes both House and Senate.
Do you think Obama will put his sign on HR 213.

His first Question will be "WTF, Where are you legalizing the Undocumented in this Immigration Bill, I am not signing it until you have something in this bill for undocumented"
GCcomando and tracka are from a lawyer forum. I have seen them very active there posting against IV. There is a reason they are being so negative here.
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  #1135 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by eastindia View Post
GCcomando and tracka are from a lawyer forum. I have seen them very active there posting against IV. There is a reason they are being so negative here.
Well, I am certainly not from a lawyer's forum. Just trying to play devils advocate and not being negative. We should be aware of these obstacles to HR213 such as - (1) democrats tendency to couple legal immigrant relief with illegal immigrants, all or nothinh (2) opposing reps and senators in the past and present (3) ordinary citizen's tendency to view HR213/similar measures as taking away good jobs

When such points are raised, why is this painted as being negative, advised to go back to India, asked to provide counter proposals or termed as being from a lawyer forum?
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  #1136 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by max4438 View Post
Well, I am certainly not from a lawyer's forum. Just trying to play devils advocate and not being negative. We should be aware of these obstacles to HR213 such as - (1) democrats tendency to couple legal immigrant relief with illegal immigrants, all or nothinh (2) opposing reps and senators in the past and present (3) ordinary citizen's tendency to view HR213/similar measures as taking away good jobs

When such points are raised, why is this painted as being negative, advised to go back to India, asked to provide counter proposals or termed as being from a lawyer forum?
Regarding

(1) Luis Gutierrez is on the bill - anyone who makes your argument about HR.213 competing with the undocumented cause - is trying to be more loyal to the King than the King himself (like Gotchers people are to Gotcher ).
(2) Do you think we are stupid? We have a Senate strategy. Do you really think we would put so much energy into something that had no hope of happening?
(3) HR.213 does not increase or decrease Green Cards or H1-B, instead it resolves ridiculously long Green Card backlogs that depresses wages for Americans - an argument we make all the time on the Hill. 57 Congressmen and their staffers (so far) manage to get it - don't you get it?
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  #1137 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:14 PM
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Regarding

(1)Luis Gutierrez is on the bill - anyone who makes your argument about HR.213 competing with the undocumented cause - is trying to be more loyal to the King than the King himself (like Gotchers people are to Gotcher ). -

Ok what about other democrats and at the time of signing the bill, it will be compared with work done for illegals. Whether we like it or not, the comparison will be drawn because the democrats major vote base is not us. Which is fine, but what are we doing about it when this comparison is drawn?


(2) Do you think we are stupid? We have a Senate strategy. Do you really think we would put so much energy into something that had no hope of happening? -

What exactly is the senate strategy? How will you convince the senators that want an "all or nothing" approach to immigration?


(3) HR.213 does not increase or decrease Green Cards or H1-B, instead it resolves ridiculously long Green Card backlogs that depresses wages for Americans - an argument we make all the time on the Hill. 57 Congressmen and their staffers (so far) manage to get it - don't you get it? -

Yes but it does allows more people to start competing directly for high paying jobs as soon as you and me are allowed to change jobs freely after getting GC. This thought is in the back of the mind of ordinary citizens.

Again, we both are on the same team. Just playing devils advocate.
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  #1138 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by eastindia View Post
GCcomando and tracka are from a lawyer forum. I have seen them very active there posting against IV. There is a reason they are being so negative here.
I supported attorney who filed lawsuit, in fact still supporting him as that is the only thing keeping the VB fiaso alive. I supported HR3012 and met my Senator to push for it back in 2010. I support HR213 also as I will be also one of the beneficiaries if the bill passes.

Having said that I have been following everything happening around immigration for last 6-7 years and I followed HR 3012 & CIR from start to finish.

So nothing in the political scenario has changed in favor of immigration recently. In fact log of things have changed against immigration bills in general. That is the reason I doubt the chances of Hr 213. Not give me facts rather than your stupid argument like I am from lawyer camp.
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  #1139 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max4438 View Post
Regarding

(1)Luis Gutierrez is on the bill - anyone who makes your argument about HR.213 competing with the undocumented cause - is trying to be more loyal to the King than the King himself (like Gotchers people are to Gotcher ). -

Ok what about other democrats and at the time of signing the bill, it will be compared with work done for illegals. Whether we like it or not, the comparison will be drawn because the democrats major vote base is not us. Which is fine, but what are we doing about it when this comparison is drawn?


(2) Do you think we are stupid? We have a Senate strategy. Do you really think we would put so much energy into something that had no hope of happening? -

What exactly is the senate strategy? How will you convince the senators that want an "all or nothing" approach to immigration?


(3) HR.213 does not increase or decrease Green Cards or H1-B, instead it resolves ridiculously long Green Card backlogs that depresses wages for Americans - an argument we make all the time on the Hill. 57 Congressmen and their staffers (so far) manage to get it - don't you get it? -

Yes but it does allows more people to start competing directly for high paying jobs as soon as you and me are allowed to change jobs freely after getting GC. This thought is in the back of the mind of ordinary citizens.

Again, we both are on the same team. Just playing devils advocate.
If you are playing devils advocate and are on the same team then why are you asking IV team to reveal the strategy? So that the lawyers and other lobbyist for consulting companies can get an insiders info? Just playing devils advocate also...
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  #1140 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2015, 04:26 PM
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By doing nothing, we will not get anything. In fact, by doing nothing, there is a good chance of hurting ourselves.

If the people, who think they are doing something on forums/twitter/petitions but actually doing nothing, actually came on board and realized that there is only one side, we maybe able to get results faster. We are probably in a chicken or egg situation.

If not, as a senior member (imh1b) said "This is why I said temporary workers are getting the best deal they deserve and should rejoice. There is no other chance in the coming years for them to get anything by doing nothing."

As for the EO and the main one I-140EAD/AP, I am not holding my breath any more honestly.

Lastly, a big good luck to the well-intentioned twitter activists.
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