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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2015, 11:41 AM
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The problem with waiting too long for a response, is that some of our self goal scoring brethren will send whatever template email there is available without understanding the nuances. We have to hope they don't dig too big of a hole.

I do think he has a good point about allowing expert evidence though. In my case, I know of an American colleague who was in a technical sales position for an IT company, who then moved to a pure Sales role, moved on to a Sales Manager for a Hotel Brand and is now CMO for a major Hotel chain.

I don't know if this sort of a progression would be possible with this memo.

Also, the pre-approval he talks about, would presumably have to be filed through a lawyer?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2015, 11:46 AM
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This might be too simplistic of a question. Why could they not have a very broad classification?

Something like "The new job would be considered same or similar if it can be demonstrated that experience in the previous position was a major part in determining a fit for the new job"

I know it could be worded better, but is there a restriction that prevents them from having a very broad and intentionally vague rule?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2015, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by legalexpat View Post
The problem with waiting too long for a response, is that some of our self goal scoring brethren will send whatever template email there is available without understanding the nuances. We have to hope they don't dig too big of a hole.

I do think he has a good point about allowing expert evidence though. In my case, I know of an American colleague who was in a technical sales position for an IT company, who then moved to a pure Sales role, moved on to a Sales Manager for a Hotel Brand and is now CMO for a major Hotel chain.

I don't know if this sort of a progression would be possible with this memo.

Also, the pre-approval he talks about, would presumably have to be filed through a lawyer?
Commenting and suggesting allowing 'Expert opinion' is fine. And the memo already does allow for accommodation for those whose any part of the SOC codes don't match. We have a problem with him because he is seemingly attacking the memo by saying "beware what you wish for". He is simply jealous that how can immigrants come up with an idea without his approval. So he has to fault the memo. We think that is simply intellectually dishonest.

If 99.99999% people will get clarity and will benefit from the memo, then why would anyone have a problem with the memo? Or should we let him argue that because it may not help 0.00001% of the folks, so lets keep the system so it will not work for everyone? Because that is what he is asking for.

He has a problem that it is not his idea and so he has to find something wrong with it. We don't believe that he is truly interested in improving the policy/system. We think he just wants to attack it using this nuanced case. They are disingenuous and that is why we have problems a problem with immigration lawyers.

Last edited by Administrator2; 12-02-2015 at 11:08 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 10:25 AM
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One concern I too wish to point out in the article posted in the lawyer's blog is where the idea of a "system for pre-approving job transfers" is being floated.

Without seeing the specific details of any procedure outlined in the regulations, those of us who wait with prayers and helplessness everytime an EAD or AP is filed for renewal to even get it approved under 90 days know what such an system could possibly look like. Perhaps
helplessness and hardship even to move jobs...
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 10:56 AM
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This is splendid. The fact that you can now be promoted from developer to manager without compromising your application makes this memo invaluable. Thank you IV and USCIS.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 01:14 PM
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Like Admin2 and Hil said, this memo applies to ALL of us. Once the I-140 EAD/AP rule is out in our favor, we ALL (including those of us who have not filed I-485 AOS) will likely somehow rely on this Memo even before we are eligible to file for AOS. Given that I-140 EAD/AP is being done under AC21 intent, we will be on I140EAD/AP and may be allowed to file I-485 using the older “remaining-valid” I-140 as long as the new job is same/similar to the original I-140 job.

I read another blog kinda implying that without this memo it was anyway easy to change jobs under same/similar “in their practice”. Wrong and misguiding people again IMO!

The biggest win for me is to be able to progress into manager role from an engineer role, as long as I manage the engineers in the same/similar role I was. This was not even possible before and I believe was making some money for the lawyers (re-start GC process is their game!).

Before this memo, the below *very common* progressions were not possible for me. After this memo these are possible:

1) Technical Progression: Engineer --> Senior Engineer --> Principal Engineer --> Chief Engineer (SOC code anyway stays the same but title/$ changes)

2) Technical to Manager Progress: Engineer -> Project Manager or Engineering Manager (managing same engineers)

As I do not work in IT, I would suggest that the IT folks may want to read carefully into whether their career progressions is any how hindered too restrictively. Bring to IV attention and then follow IV lead on the comments. I am afraid some people who are not so well informed will start writing comments that are against their self-interest.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by checklaw View Post
One concern I too wish to point out in the article posted in the lawyer's blog is where the idea of a "system for pre-approving job transfers" is being floated.

Without seeing the specific details of any procedure outlined in the regulations, those of us who wait with prayers and helplessness everytime an EAD or AP is filed for renewal to even get it approved under 90 days know what such an system could possibly look like. Perhaps
helplessness and hardship even to move jobs...
Immigrants should be VERY VERY careful about any change that is promoted by imnigration lawyers. Here is another example.

This suggestion of "system for pre-approving job transfers" may sound like a good idea and it may even be wrapped around this noble idea that "immigration lawyers live to serve immigrants", which lawyers always try to preach. But here is the truth -

Earlier: To change jobs you had to seek permission from (1) Current Employer (2) New Employer (3) Immigration lawyers

With "system for pre-approving job transfers" change: To change jobs, you will be required to take permission from (1) Current Employer (2) New Employer (3) Immigration lawyers (4) US Government (USCIS)

And we all know first hand how easy and time consuming it is for USCIS to approve anything.

IV thinks that this memo should be the ONLY method to determine change of jobs because of the objective and clear method defined in this policy memo: To change jobs you only seek permission (search and get jobs offer) from (1) New Employer ONLY, which is how it is for all other normal people in the marketplace.

There are so many systems that have clear guidelines and people and lawyers follow those guidelines and they are are not required to seek approval over and over again. For all other matter, lawyers NEVER EVER ask/suggest that they would want to seek government to approve everything again and again. Instead, if anything, for ALL OTHER MATTERS lawyers don't want to seek government's permission. But when it comes to freedom for immigrants to change jobs, these slimy immigration lawyers will want to move mountains to make sure immigrants are unable to change jobs and if at all somehow immigrants are ever allowed to change jobs then immigrants must seek permission from the government (because lawyers know how difficult it is to seek government's permission/approval for anything).

And to top it, there are those brainless immigrants who rejoice when these lawyers ask for such a change, and these immigrants have ABSOLUTELY ZERO idea about how they are SCREWING EVERYONE ELSE ALSO.

Here, see for yourself, these completely brainless and galactically stupid people are cheering immigration lawyer for making it more difficult for everyone to change jobs:

https://twitter.com/vsabharwal/statu...56549081075712

This is height of stupidity for people to cheer a change where they will be kicked in the teeth when they are down. Simply amazing! And when you apply for this so-called "pre-approving job transfers", guess who will offer services to prepare your petition and ask you to cough-up money. Yes, you guess it right. Now immigration lawyers will make more money even to file more petitions every time you even think of changing a job (not that you will actually change jobs, but even if you think of changing jobs, please don't forget to pay immigration lawyers their ransom).

IV has rejected such suggestions for years now and we will strongly oppose if any such proposal comes up again that requires immigrants to seek government permission to change jobs, which is a method to slow down and impede (and thus discourage) immigrants from changing jobs. There has to be well defined method in place where people follow the method and they go about living their lives like all other normal people. Otherwise soon you will have immigration lawyers ask for a new process where backlogged immigrants will require to be "pre-approved to take a piss"?????? This is not funny, this makes us angry that some immigrants are somehow so stupid that they fall for everything that lawyers say without even first spending a second to think what lawyers are doing.

Last edited by Administrator2; 12-03-2015 at 11:40 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 01:58 PM
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Even a simple extension of EAD which requires no analytical comparison, rather it is a dumb paper which has to be approved because you are legal and your green card petition is pending. Even that document - EAD - takes 90 days for USCIS to approve. Then how can anyone expect any such new "pre-approval" to take less than 90 days. And will your new employer wait for you to show up after 3-4 months?

Imagine a scenario where you are negotiating with a prospective employer for a new job. Lets say the prospective employer says that they will offer you $X for specific responsibilities and job title. Then you apply for this so-called "pre-approval" and wait for 90 days. But 2 days later, your prospective new employer calls you again to negotiate terms of the employment and ask you to do 2 more things. Then you re-apply for this so-called "pre-approval". And then wait. When somehow, if you manage to join, the new employer says - I was you to do 2 more things and I want to promote you and give you more money. Then you reapply for "pre-approval". And wait for another 90 days.

How many times are you going to apply for pre-approval? How can the rate of approval change with the fast changing pace of your "free will" and the demands of fast changing job environment? How can the government/USCIS stand between you and your employer when Congress determined that you should be allowed to change jobs and even defined the method as "same or similar occupation classification".

Isn't the whole problem with H1B system that you don't want to seek government's permission every time you change jobs? Then how is the suggestion of this so-called "pre-approval" any different than seek government's permission to change jobs or take promotions?

Now look at the alternate, this policy memo allows you a mathematical process to compare Major and Minor groups along with broad and detailed job codes for your job SOC code, and objectively determine what is "same or similar occupation classification", no permission required, no pre-approval required. the reason being, because that is definition "same or similar occupation classification" which has determined that you are pre-approved merely because of the process defined by the government in the Policy Memo. But no - how can immigration lawyers make money if you can yourself determine whether or not you can change jobs, isn't it? Because how will immigration lawyers feed their children if they somehow don't steal from your children. And that is what this whole change is about.

Last edited by Administrator2; 12-03-2015 at 02:15 PM.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 02:43 PM
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Default Watch what you wish for

The "system for pre-approving job transfers" sounds so noble and pro-immigrant, but infact the devil will be in the detail as Admin has explained. Such a system will add more hoops to jump thru there by pushing immigrants to servitude.

we should oppose any such proposal as part of our public comment. IV when you deem appropriate please post the recommended response for "Same or Similar" memo.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 03:06 PM
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[quote=Administrator2;3593884]Even a simple extension of EAD which requires no analytical comparison, rather it is a dumb paper which has to be approved because you are legal and your green card petition is pending. Even that document - EAD - takes 90 days for USCIS to approve. Then how can anyone expect any such new "pre-approval" to take less than 90 days. And will your new employer wait for you to show up after 3-4 months?

It is so difficult to make your new employer wait for 3 weeks..3 months forget it..
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2015, 03:48 PM
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Default Thanks !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator2 View Post
Even a simple extension of EAD which requires no analytical comparison, rather it is a dumb paper which has to be approved because you are legal and your green card petition is pending. Even that document - EAD - takes 90 days for USCIS to approve. Then how can anyone expect any such new "pre-approval" to take less than 90 days. And will your new employer wait for you to show up after 3-4 months?

Imagine a scenario where you are negotiating with a prospective employer for a new job. Lets say the prospective employer says that they will offer you $X for specific responsibilities and job title. Then you apply for this so-called "pre-approval" and wait for 90 days. But 2 days later, your prospective new employer calls you again to negotiate terms of the employment and ask you to do 2 more things. Then you re-apply for this so-called "pre-approval". And then wait. When somehow, if you manage to join, the new employer says - I was you to do 2 more things and I want to promote you and give you more money. Then you reapply for "pre-approval". And wait for another 90 days.

How many times are you going to apply for pre-approval? How can the rate of approval change with the fast changing pace of your "free will" and the demands of fast changing job environment? How can the government/USCIS stand between you and your employer when Congress determined that you should be allowed to change jobs and even defined the method as "same or similar occupation classification".

Isn't the whole problem with H1B system that you don't want to seek government's permission every time you change jobs? Then how is the suggestion of this so-called "pre-approval" any different than seek government's permission to change jobs or take promotions?

Now look at the alternate, this policy memo allows you a mathematical process to compare Major and Minor groups along with broad and detailed job codes for your job SOC code, and objectively determine what is "same or similar occupation classification", no permission required, no pre-approval required. the reason being, because that is definition "same or similar occupation classification" which has determined that you are pre-approved merely because of the process defined by the government in the Policy Memo. But no - how can immigration lawyers make money if you can yourself determine whether or not you can change jobs, isn't it? Because how will immigration lawyers feed their children if they somehow don't steal from your children. And that is what this whole change is about.
Thanks for doing such an excellent work of exposing hidden agenda of people who otherwise pretend to be helping the immigrants !! For a moment I really believed that pre-approval could be a good idea to get clarity...but now I understand the trap/fees hidden in that suggestion.

I hope the administration (this or next) have honest and experienced people like you, who could identify and call out such traps instilled by special interests, on their side if/when they legislate immigration reforms.... !!!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2015, 09:10 AM
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Default List of Computer related SOC Codes

Here is a list of Computer related SOC Codes as per DOL:

15-1110 Computer and Information Research Scientists
  • 15-1111 Computer and Information Research Scientists
15-1120 Computer and Information Analysts
  • 15-1121 Computer Systems Analysts
  • 15-1122 Information Security Analysts
15-1130 Software Developers and Programmers
  • 15-1131 Computer Programmers
  • 15-1132 Software Developers, Applications
  • 15-1133 Software Developers, Systems Software
  • 15-1134 Web Developers
15-1140 Database and Systems Administrators and Network Architects
  • 15-1141 Database Administrators
  • 15-1142 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
  • 15-1143 Computer Network Architects
15-1150 Computer Support Specialists
  • 15-1151 Computer User Support Specialists
  • 15-1152 Computer Network Support Specialists
15-1190 Miscellaneous Computer Occupations
  • 15-1199 Computer Occupations, All Other

For complete list of SOC codes please visit:
List of SOC Occupations
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2015, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky View Post
Here is a list of Computer related SOC Codes as per DOL:

15-1110 Computer and Information Research Scientists
  • 15-1111 Computer and Information Research Scientists
15-1120 Computer and Information Analysts
  • 15-1121 Computer Systems Analysts
  • 15-1122 Information Security Analysts
15-1130 Software Developers and Programmers
  • 15-1131 Computer Programmers
  • 15-1132 Software Developers, Applications
  • 15-1133 Software Developers, Systems Software
  • 15-1134 Web Developers
15-1140 Database and Systems Administrators and Network Architects
  • 15-1141 Database Administrators
  • 15-1142 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
  • 15-1143 Computer Network Architects
15-1150 Computer Support Specialists
  • 15-1151 Computer User Support Specialists
  • 15-1152 Computer Network Support Specialists
15-1190 Miscellaneous Computer Occupations
  • 15-1199 Computer Occupations, All Other

For complete list of SOC codes please visit:
List of SOC Occupations
The current law says "same or similar occupation classification".
For 15 years, lawyers forced this law to have a very restrictive meaning to imply as "same job"
"Job" is not the same as "Job Classification"
In this above example of Job is : 15-1131 Computer Programmers (which is just 1 job)
And an example of Job classification is: 15-0000 Computer and Mathematical Occupations (This classification/type contains all the jobs listed above).

So the law allows you to change jobs, not just to the "same job", not even "same or similar job", and not even "same occupation classification". The law clearly says (TWICE) "same or similar occupation classification". And for 15 years, by obfuscating the real intent and meaning of the law, lawyers made sure that you are discouraged to changed jobs. But now that this is changing, lawyers will somehow find a reason to fault this change.

If your SOC job code starts with 15-XXXX, then the draft policy memo allows you to change to other jobs with the Major group of jobs that has SOC code starting with 15-YYYY. Plus, the draft policy memo allows you to be the supervisor, manager or any other job progression where you might have people with SOC job code starting with 15-XXXXX report into you. This all means "same occupation classification", which in this case is determined by same major group of SOC code - because according to DOL, major code in SOC is a "occupation classification". And your "same occupation classification" is major group of "15".

And the memo doesn't stop there, it goes on to allow affording flexibility to change jobs to "similar occupation classification" meaning - where major group of the SOC job code different. And the draft memo says - even if your new job SOC job code major group is different, even in that case, you can present evidence of "similar occupation classification" for consideration. Meaning, if the major group of the SOC job code is different, even then you can provide justification for "similar occupation classification".

Now is that not what you want to do - to get objective and clear understanding of the jobs you can change too? Yes, it doesn't allow you to start a grocery store, restaurant, gas station. Yes, the memo doesn't allow you to become a carpenter or a plumber if your green card was applied as IT specialist. But how many IT specialist wants to be carpenter or a plumber? And maybe if someone is an IT specialist but now wants to be carpenter or a plumber, then maybe he needs a doctor more than a lawyer.

And even if you want to own a restaurant, gas station or a grocery store, you can have your spouse start/own that on her/his EAD.

So quite frankly, no reasonable person can look at this draft policy memo to complain that it is "restrictive" over the current system (which remains undefined or which remains as "same job"), unless of'course someone has an agenda to make sure you are unable to change jobs without paying a ransom.

Last edited by Administrator2; 12-04-2015 at 02:46 PM.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2015, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator2 View Post
lawyers will somehow find a reason to fault this change.
Twitter lawyers, blogging lawyers, template lawyers, lobby lawyers and hobby lawyers are no exception
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhishma View Post
Twitter lawyers, blogging lawyers, template lawyers, lobby lawyers and hobby lawyers are no exception
May be its true. Bcos I couldn't find AILA's response to USCIS regarding this new regulation.
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