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IV Agenda and Legislative Updates Immigration Voice's Agenda and Legislative Updates

View Poll Results: Which is the bigger problem?
Retrogression 7 53.85%
"Employer-based" immigration 6 46.15%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2006, 12:38 PM
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Default Which is a bigger problem: retrogression or employer sponsorship?

I've seen both ends of abuse by employers of people here on H1-B visas who were applying for green cards: 1) Americans seeing their salaries cut with competion from H1-B visas cited as the reason, and 2) H1-B visas holders being denied benefits or pay, and then being shipped back just before they were expected to get their green cards. It's so bad that I got out of programming all together, as did a lot of other Americans I know.

My feeling is this: why not have employment based immigration tied to being employed vs. tied to a specific employer, especially given the abuse and backlogs under the current system? Why waste state tax dollars for departments of labors to verify salaries when allowing foreign workers to switch employers would provide a market based solution? I can tell you that from the side of American workers, there is a lot of resentment out there towards H1-B visas, but I think it is based on abuse by employers.

I'll try to set up a poll with this post, but tell me what you think: is retrogression the bigger problem, or is "employer based" immigration the bigger problem.
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Old 01-08-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallemery
I've seen both ends of abuse by employers of people here on H1-B visas who were applying for green cards: 1) Americans seeing their salaries cut with competion from H1-B visas cited as the reason, and 2) H1-B visas holders being denied benefits or pay, and then being shipped back just before they were expected to get their green cards. It's so bad that I got out of programming all together, as did a lot of other Americans I know.

My feeling is this: why not have employment based immigration tied to being employed vs. tied to a specific employer, especially given the abuse and backlogs under the current system? Why waste state tax dollars for departments of labors to verify salaries when allowing foreign workers to switch employers would provide a market based solution? I can tell you that from the side of American workers, there is a lot of resentment out there towards H1-B visas, but I think it is based on abuse by employers.

I'll try to set up a poll with this post, but tell me what you think: is retrogression the bigger problem, or is "employer based" immigration the bigger problem.

Hello randallemery,

Reading your two posts I am slightly confused. Your post says that your wife's I-485 is pending for last three years. And then you say that retrogression (i.e. delay in processing of Green Card) is not a more important issue than anything else.

The points mentioned in your post are a matter of perception. Here is how:

"Americans seeing their salaries cut with competition from H1-B visas cited as the reason,"
Well! How about this thought? H1B community contributed towards the technology boom. The technology boom contributed towards large number of jobs by creation of new ideas and companies who provide different kind of solutions. So if somebody wants the benefit of the progress in which H1B contributed and helped to increases the number of jobs to cause upward pressure to salaries, but do not like competition of capitalist society, don't you think they should revisit the shallow thought process? I am not saying that all the progress has happened only because of people on H1B. But I am suggesting that H1B and immigrant community did sizeable contribution towards the progress in technology. But few people whom you are quoting and who suggest that there has been cut in salaries with competition from H1B visas, these people has superficial thought process without deeper understanding of the issue. This is our take.

Anyway, this forum is not created to discuss if H1B is good or bad. That is not the objective. And even though there maybe people who think otherwise due to whatever personal or other reasons, the question here is about Retrogression and the people who suffer due to delay in green card process including the huge lines in the back log labor centers. I would urge you to not try to distract people here from the larger issue that we have in front of us.


"H1-B visas holders being denied benefits or pay, and then being shipped back just before they were expected to get their green cards."
In every relationship there is give and take. And wherever there is employer-employee relationship some people will be dissatisfied and some may feel abused. I am not denying that there may have never been any abuse. But allow me to ask you this, how about the abuse of the non-H1B worker by their employer. Nobody talks of that. Why? You don't think that it happens. And simply using the pretext of "ABUSE" to target H1B and the whole H1B program or using the pretext of "downward pressure on salaries" by people who are afraid of competition or who are not actually fit for a capitalist society but want to reap all the benefits from it but who wants to blame everybody other than themselves for all their problems is simply the worst form of laziness. "Abuse" is not something limited to H1B employee-employer relationship. It expands to all forms of employee-employer relationship. And simply choosing selective from the list of examples and then using them to substantiate and argument that is based on superficial ideas is simply doesn't help. We have seen discussion on the issue by anti-immigrants on different forums who have diverted the problems caused due to retrogression into totally different subject matter. I would request you to please not attempt that on this forum and cause distraction. And if that is not the intent then please accept my apologize.

Thanks,
-WP

Last edited by WaldenPond; 01-16-2007 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 01-08-2006, 10:02 PM
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WP,

Well said. I think you did the right thing in saying what you did, because you need to stand up to the anti-immigrant sentiment. Believe me, no offense is taken from your reply. It wasn't my intent to come off that way originally, and I apologize if I offended anyone.

The reason I brought up H1B visas is because, at least to my understanding, the issue of retrogression issues with green card holders has to do with the quotas and only applies to people who come over on H1 visas (mostly H1B) and apply for a green card.

For my wife, the issue is either a delay with USCIS or the FBI name check. There is no quota issue because I'm a citizen.

I'd also like to clarify what I meant by abuse. From my side, as a citizen, I was once told that I would only be paid 50% of what I was offered the week before, at the same customer, because I was "competing with other firms who employed H1-B visa holders" and charged much less. The customer really wanted me back, and explained that it was purely financial. The problem for me was that 30% of my rate was for expenses, so this amounted to a real cut in my salary by over 80%. I knew that the H1-B visa holders had to have been hired at illegally low prices under prevailing wage laws. But could I do, sue the competing companies? I didn't even know who they were. Pretty soon all the agencies started doing the same thing. So in 2002, I made less than 20% of what I did in 2001.

I then went back to being a regular employee vs. an independent, where I got to see a whole office laid off, including people who were brought over here, just bought a house, and had kids. Those people had H1-B visas and were applying for green cards. It was aweful.

Anyway, I brought up "employer based" immigration, as I called it, because retrogression (again, as I understand it) focuses solely on employment based immigration. I'm trying to see if there is a common ground in different communities affected by current immigration policies, including family based immigrants and American workers who've been subjected to the kind of low-balling I experienced.

For my part, I am completely shocked at what is going on with immigration. I had no idea how bad it was. But when I saw the aftermath of Katrina, I started seeing immigration as part of a larger, systemic problem with the Department of Homeland Security. I think there is a real opportunity for a general set of principles that a very large (and very motivated) group of people could agree upon. If a mjority of people feel that "employer based" immigration is really the issue, it would signal to me that this could form part of just such a set of principles.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting this group change its mission, but I would like to see if there is an opportunity for coalition building.

Regards,
Randall
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Old 01-08-2006, 10:54 PM
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Hello Randall,

Allow me to apologize. I could not understand the context of your post and was a bit tough on the previous post. In the past there have been attempts by some people to disrupt the forum.

Thank you for your understanding towards the systemic problem of delay in green card processing. Any help to the members of this forum by joining efforts with any other group or group of individuals is most welcome. Would request you to please share any ideas for coalition building. I would also request more members of the forum to please participate with this discussion.

Regards,
WP
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Old 01-08-2006, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randallemery
WP,

Well said. I think you did the right thing in saying what you did, because you need to stand up to the anti-immigrant sentiment. Believe me, no offense is taken from your reply. It wasn't my intent to come off that way originally, and I apologize if I offended anyone.

The reason I brought up H1B visas is because, at least to my understanding, the issue of retrogression issues with green card holders has to do with the quotas and only applies to people who come over on H1 visas (mostly H1B) and apply for a green card.

For my wife, the issue is either a delay with USCIS or the FBI name check. There is no quota issue because I'm a citizen.

I'd also like to clarify what I meant by abuse. From my side, as a citizen, I was once told that I would only be paid 50% of what I was offered the week before, at the same customer, because I was "competing with other firms who employed H1-B visa holders" and charged much less. The customer really wanted me back, and explained that it was purely financial. The problem for me was that 30% of my rate was for expenses, so this amounted to a real cut in my salary by over 80%. I knew that the H1-B visa holders had to have been hired at illegally low prices under prevailing wage laws. But could I do, sue the competing companies? I didn't even know who they were. Pretty soon all the agencies started doing the same thing. So in 2002, I made less than 20% of what I did in 2001.

I then went back to being a regular employee vs. an independent, where I got to see a whole office laid off, including people who were brought over here, just bought a house, and had kids. Those people had H1-B visas and were applying for green cards. It was aweful.

Anyway, I brought up "employer based" immigration, as I called it, because retrogression (again, as I understand it) focuses solely on employment based immigration. I'm trying to see if there is a common ground in different communities affected by current immigration policies, including family based immigrants and American workers who've been subjected to the kind of low-balling I experienced.

For my part, I am completely shocked at what is going on with immigration. I had no idea how bad it was. But when I saw the aftermath of Katrina, I started seeing immigration as part of a larger, systemic problem with the Department of Homeland Security. I think there is a real opportunity for a general set of principles that a very large (and very motivated) group of people could agree upon. If a mjority of people feel that "employer based" immigration is really the issue, it would signal to me that this could form part of just such a set of principles.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting this group change its mission, but I would like to see if there is an opportunity for coalition building.

Regards,
Randall
Hi randallemery.

Your points of view and perspective is well taken. The essence of the argument w.r.t the current immigration system in this country is that it is highly flawed and begs for a rational and commonsense approach.

So often our legitimate issues have invited the wrath of rabid ant - immigrant sentiments. The need of the hour is for everyone who are affected directly or indirectly to analyse it objectively.

Last edited by indio0617; 01-09-2006 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 01-09-2006, 01:13 AM
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WP - as I said, no offense taken. No need to apologize.

Regarding coalition building, it seems that there are just more and more of us who are severely impacted personally. You know I spoke to someone yesterday who married a woman from the same town as my wife and she used the wrong visa to travel after they got married (used a valid B2 instead of filing an I-485 right away). It's a complicated story, but USCIS actually imprisoned her for 13 days and then, after shipping her back, it was 2 years before they could live together in the US, and he could only go there for a few months at a time with the visas for her country.

With immigration, even the rabid anti-immigration people usually have some some personal stories behind them. The example I gave could be the basis for an anti-immigration feeling. I also heard an example of somebody who was injured by an undocumented worker in a car accident; well, they had no auto insurance. That's a legitimate gripe. I think the only way to deal with the rabid anti-immigration people is to reframe the issue and put responsiblity where it is supposed to be: with the Department of Homeland Security. This is an organization that was formed solely for the purpose of centralizing authority and responsibility.

I'm sure the post-Katrina FEMA stories are even worse.

Hopefully, if we can all share enough of these stories we can identify common ground and move forward together. Imagine if every family affected by either FEMA or USCIS got togther and said "we want this entire package of reforms implemented; all or nothing, we stand together." Other agencies in DHS are crazy too. I heard that TSA wouldn't let a 4-year fly because his name was on terrorist watch list. A 4-year old!

An obvious step is just going out there and talking to people in other groups. I also had the idea to try to get the stories out there in a more human way, and I'm working on a web site to do that (to be written in PHP, just like the Joomla package running this site). The concept is at www.dhsreport.org and I have a blog about it at dhsreport.blogspot.com.

Of course, every new group like this one is a great step, too!

Last edited by randallemery; 01-09-2006 at 01:16 AM.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2006, 07:00 AM
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Randallmerry :

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here...but right now it is better to focus on the problems/issues we are dealing with, rather than clubbing other than our issues in this forum..

It will be highly appreciated if you can contributed to the efforts here and not deviate the focus....

thanks
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Old 01-09-2006, 01:42 PM
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Hi file485,

Point taken. Again, my intent is not to impede or distract. I was really hyped up last night after I found out that a legislator had actually used the problem I'm having as a citizen as justification for not improving the 5 year wait many green card holders endure to live with their families. Sometimes the emotion gets the better of you and you just keep typing.

Anyway, as these forums are just a few days old, maybe the moderators of the forums would like to create a "coalition building" or "outreach" forum, or something along those lines, and move this thread there.

Randall
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