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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:07 AM
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Question Is IV following the right strategy?

Hi, everyone,

I want to open up a debate on the current strategic direction IV is moving towards. What I understand is that IV is trying to push for the passage of STRIVE act. But has anyone think of the resistence the act will face. By its own comprehansive nature, STRIVE is an elephant everyone wants to take a shot at, and thus I would guess it's chance of being passed is not very bright.

Can we instead push for some sort of emergency relief for people currently on the backlog. Sth very specific: no need to increase quota and revamp the vastly inadequate immigration system, we just want to be able to do 2 things (get in and out of the US freely, and change job freely). If we position our grievance from this angle, I would guess that we would be better of. It's always better to focus on sth with very high Value/Cost ratio.

I recognize that IV has different constituency groups (i.e. students want to increase H-1B quota ONLY, etc.). Also I have no clue how politicians work in Washington. I just want everyone's honest input on this.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:42 AM
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Cool Are you a communist???

Quote:
Originally Posted by janakp
I don't understand why people have all the time in the world to question IV stratagy, postion etc and give IV hundreds of ideas to do for them.

Please answer these questions so that we know you are a sincere IV member and genuinely questioning IV.

WFGC2006, have you updated your profile yet or you are an annonymous member? your answer will tell everyone your sincerity.

Have you contributed to IV yet?

Are you participating in the phone campaign of IV?

It is very easy to sit back and pass judgements but it takes lot of efforts to do something. I am calling lawmakers now and I feel a little frustrated seeing the turnout of people genuninely interested in doing something. Most members are simply visiting the forums and posting messages with opinions thinking that their opinions are more valuable than their contributions and efforts.

Moderators should close this thread so that members can focus on call the lawmakers campagn.
Why do you get so agitated? Honest debate is the lifeline for any organization to thrive. Only in a communism country, people will say such word to each other.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:50 AM
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Default The problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFGC2006
Hi, everyone,

I want to open up a debate on the current strategic direction IV is moving towards. What I understand is that IV is trying to push for the passage of STRIVE act. But has anyone think of the resistence the act will face. By its own comprehansive nature, STRIVE is an elephant everyone wants to take a shot at, and thus I would guess it's chance of being passed is not very bright.

Can we instead push for some sort of emergency relief for people currently on the backlog. Sth very specific: no need to increase quota and revamp the vastly inadequate immigration system, we just want to be able to do 2 things (get in and out of the US freely, and change job freely). If we position our grievance from this angle, I would guess that we would be better of. It's always better to focus on sth with very high Value/Cost ratio.

I recognize that IV has different constituency groups (i.e. students want to increase H-1B quota ONLY, etc.). Also I have no clue how politicians work in Washington. I just want everyone's honest input on this.

The problem with sound reason and sound argument is that it appeals to us but it really doesnt work on Capitol Hill.

What you are saying is a small bill or a provision to provide a little temporary relief before CIR is debated because A) We are legals, B) we are highly skilled and punished unneccesarily by the system C) CIR has nothing to do with us.

However, if you go and talk to some offices that are actually have to power to schedule bills and put legislation up for debate...like Chairmen/Chairwomen of the House and Senate Judiciary committees and the immigration sub-committees, they all will tell you to basically "Get lost" ... not in so many words but in polite way, if you try to put your own issues ahead of CIR. Why? because it undermines their case for CIR. It causes support for CIR to be divided between different bills and if all issues are split apart in different bills, like one bill for border security, one bill for high-skills immigration, one bill for employer enforcement and one bill for legalization, then guess which one will fail in congress?

If you do not have the support of committee chairman/chairwoman on the House and Senate on the issue you want to be considered, then you can try all you want, it aint happening. One example: Last year, Cong Shadegg tabled SKIL bill in the House. CIR was dead. What was wrong with supporting SKIL bill? Why it didnt go forward? Because the House Judiciary Chairman Cong Sensenbrenner basically took it, and kept it aside. What can you do about it? Nothing. Similarly, on the Senate side, SKIL bill was put up even before CIR was debated. After CIR died in July 2006, why did SKIL bill not get debated in Senate? It had enough votes in committee as well as floor? Then why not? Coz the Chairman of the Judiciary committee, at the time Sen. Arlen Specter may not have allowed it. It was a strategy from the get-go. Its "Either you support us in CIR and put your stuff in our CIR bill, or get lost".

Please give up the belief the congress schedules legislation and debate based on the merits of the issue. If merits of the issue were really causing legislation and the floor time for debate, they wouldnt have spent hours and hours on bills that would amend the US constitution to ban flag-burning and ban gay-marriage. Are they passable? No. Firstly, you need 2/3 votes to amend constitution in US congress. Then 3/4 state legislatures have to approve it. If even 13 states out of 50 reject it, constitution cannot be amended. So why did they spend time on such amendment? Well, because merits of the case or the passability of bill has nothing to do with schedule of congress.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:56 AM
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Default Thanks for the wonderful explanation logiclife

We appreciate your patience and the hardwork IV has been putting to get us somewhere.

.................................................. ......................................
$60+$20 recurring contribution every month






Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclife
The problem with sound reason and sound argument is that it appeals to us but it really doesnt work on Capitol Hill.

What you are saying is a small bill or a provision to provide a little temporary relief before CIR is debated because A) We are legals, B) we are highly skilled and punished unneccesarily by the system C) CIR has nothing to do with us.

However, if you go and talk to some offices that are actually have to power to schedule bills and put legislation up for debate...like Chairmen/Chairwomen of the House and Senate Judiciary committees and the immigration sub-committees, they all will tell you to basically "Get lost" ... not in so many words but in polite way, if you try to put your own issues ahead of CIR. Why? because it undermines their case for CIR. It causes support for CIR to be divided between different bills and if all issues are split apart in different bills, like one bill for border security, one bill for high-skills immigration, one bill for employer enforcement and one bill for legalization, then guess which one will fail in congress?

If you do not have the support of committee chairman/chairwoman on the House and Senate on the issue you want to be considered, then you can try all you want, it aint happening. One example: Last year, Cong Shadegg tabled SKIL bill in the House. CIR was dead. What was wrong with supporting SKIL bill? Why it didnt go forward? Because the House Judiciary Chairman Cong Sensenbrenner basically took it, and kept it aside. What can you do about it? Nothing. Similarly, on the Senate side, SKIL bill was put up even before CIR was debated. After CIR died in July 2006, why did SKIL bill not get debated in Senate? It had enough votes in committee as well as floor? Then why not? Coz the Chairman of the Judiciary committee, at the time Sen. Arlen Specter may not have allowed it. It was a strategy from the get-go. Its "Either you support us in CIR and put your stuff in our CIR bill, or get lost".

Please give up the belief the congress schedules legislation and debate based on the merits of the issue. If merits of the issue were really causing legislation and the floor time for debate, they wouldnt have spent hours and hours on bills that would amend the US constitution to ban flag-burning and ban gay-marriage. Are they passable? No. Firstly, you need 2/3 votes to amend constitution in US congress. Then 3/4 state legislatures have to approve it. If even 13 states out of 50 reject it, constitution cannot be amended. So why did they spend time on such amendment? Well, because merits of the case or the passability of bill has nothing to do with schedule of congress.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:57 AM
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Default

Hi,
I am answering your questions; in return I want you to answer my questions that are listed in the end, as you want a honest debate:

1. Can we instead push for some sort of emergency relief for people currently on the backlog?

NO, I don't believe so;Congress cannot be moved to act on specific grievances in the form of legislature. If you think, USCIS can do it as administrative procedures, write to Ombudsman and ask your lawyer to contact USCIS.
IV does not call shots on the policymaking procedures of congress. While the list is big, whatever is appropriate given political scenario, efforts are made. In your wisdom you might understand that it is better to work WITH Congress than against it.

2.If we position our grievance from this angle, I would guess that we would be better of. It's always better to focus on sth with very high Value/Cost ratio.

Congress would consider Value/cost ratio that is of national importance and usually avoids scractching ---- of people who whine about life and reality.

Here are my questions:

I am quoting from janakp; please answer them instead of spinning off to counter arguments:

WFGC2006, have you updated your profile yet or you are an annonymous member? your answer will tell everyone your sincerity.

Have you contributed to IV yet?

Are you participating in the phone campaign of IV?


The reason for these questions is that periodically some smartasses come in, rake the logs, set fire and disappear. This one such vulnerable moment when IV wants its members to focus on calling congressmembers who matter than to be answering mischievous, divisive or even sincere questions like yours.

I am waiting for your anwers.





Quote:
Originally Posted by WFGC2006
Hi, everyone,

I want to open up a debate on the current strategic direction IV is moving towards. What I understand is that IV is trying to push for the passage of STRIVE act. But has anyone think of the resistence the act will face. By its own comprehansive nature, STRIVE is an elephant everyone wants to take a shot at, and thus I would guess it's chance of being passed is not very bright.

Sth very specific: no need to increase quota and revamp the vastly inadequate immigration system, we just want to be able to do 2 things (get in and out of the US freely, and change job freely).

I recognize that IV has different constituency groups (i.e. students want to increase H-1B quota ONLY, etc.). Also I have no clue how politicians work in Washington. I just want everyone's honest input on this.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:58 AM
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Default Thanks logiclife !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclife
The problem with sound reason and sound argument is that it appeals to us but it really doesnt work on Capitol Hill.

What you are saying is a small bill or a provision to provide a little temporary relief before CIR is debated because A) We are legals, B) we are highly skilled and punished unneccesarily by the system C) CIR has nothing to do with us.

However, if you go and talk to some offices that are actually have to power to schedule bills and put legislation up for debate...like Chairmen/Chairwomen of the House and Senate Judiciary committees and the immigration sub-committees, they all will tell you to basically "Get lost" ... not in so many words but in polite way, if you try to put your own issues ahead of CIR. Why? because it undermines their case for CIR. It causes support for CIR to be divided between different bills and if all issues are split apart in different bills, like one bill for border security, one bill for high-skills immigration, one bill for employer enforcement and one bill for legalization, then guess which one will fail in congress?

If you do not have the support of committee chairman/chairwoman on the House and Senate on the issue you want to be considered, then you can try all you want, it aint happening. One example: Last year, Cong Shadegg tabled SKIL bill in the House. CIR was dead. What was wrong with supporting SKIL bill? Why it didnt go forward? Because the House Judiciary Chairman Cong Sensenbrenner basically took it, and kept it aside. What can you do about it? Nothing. Similarly, on the Senate side, SKIL bill was put up even before CIR was debated. After CIR died in July 2006, why did SKIL bill not get debated in Senate? It had enough votes in committee as well as floor? Then why not? Coz the Chairman of the Judiciary committee, at the time Sen. Arlen Specter may not have allowed it. It was a strategy from the get-go. Its "Eithere you support us in CIR and put your stuff in our CIR bill, or get lost".

Please give up the belief the congress schedules legislation and debate based on the merits of the issue. If merits of the issue were really causing legislation and the floor time for debate, they wouldnt have spent hours and hours on bills that would amend the US constitution to ban flag-burning and ban gay-marriage. Are they passable? No. Firstly, you need 2/3 votes to amend constitution in US congress. Then 3/4 state legislatures have to approve it. If even 13 states out of 50 reject it, constitution cannot be amended. So why did they spend time on such amendment? Well, because merits of the case or the passability of bill has nothing to do with schedule of congress.
This is THE input I am looking for!!
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:58 AM
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Default Thanks!

This is one of the best articulated answers I've ever seen. wfgc2006 did have a valid questions (honestly, I believe quite a few of us may have had the same doubts) and I think logiclife's comment did more than to just answer the immediate question - it showed us exactly how practical IV Core is. Yes, truth hurts but it is important to know your boundaries as well.

PS: janakp, you can do better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logiclife
The problem with sound reason and sound argument is that it appeals to us but it really doesnt work on Capitol Hill.

What you are saying is a small bill or a provision to provide a little temporary relief before CIR is debated because A) We are legals, B) we are highly skilled and punished unneccesarily by the system C) CIR has nothing to do with us.

However, if you go and talk to some offices that are actually have to power to schedule bills and put legislation up for debate...like Chairmen/Chairwomen of the House and Senate Judiciary committees and the immigration sub-committees, they all will tell you to basically "Get lost" ... not in so many words but in polite way, if you try to put your own issues ahead of CIR. Why? because it undermines their case for CIR. It causes support for CIR to be divided between different bills and if all issues are split apart in different bills, like one bill for border security, one bill for high-skills immigration, one bill for employer enforcement and one bill for legalization, then guess which one will fail in congress?

If you do not have the support of committee chairman/chairwoman on the House and Senate on the issue you want to be considered, then you can try all you want, it aint happening. One example: Last year, Cong Shadegg tabled SKIL bill in the House. CIR was dead. What was wrong with supporting SKIL bill? Why it didnt go forward? Because the House Judiciary Chairman Cong Sensenbrenner basically took it, and kept it aside. What can you do about it? Nothing. Similarly, on the Senate side, SKIL bill was put up even before CIR was debated. After CIR died in July 2006, why did SKIL bill not get debated in Senate? It had enough votes in committee as well as floor? Then why not? Coz the Chairman of the Judiciary committee, at the time Sen. Arlen Specter may not have allowed it. It was a strategy from the get-go. Its "Either you support us in CIR and put your stuff in our CIR bill, or get lost".

Please give up the belief the congress schedules legislation and debate based on the merits of the issue. If merits of the issue were really causing legislation and the floor time for debate, they wouldnt have spent hours and hours on bills that would amend the US constitution to ban flag-burning and ban gay-marriage. Are they passable? No. Firstly, you need 2/3 votes to amend constitution in US congress. Then 3/4 state legislatures have to approve it. If even 13 states out of 50 reject it, constitution cannot be amended. So why did they spend time on such amendment? Well, because merits of the case or the passability of bill has nothing to do with schedule of congress.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2007, 12:24 PM
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Default my 2 cents

My problem with such posts is that they divert people from the actual task at hand. Instead of starting a thread on the forum the user could have simply PM'ed a core member.

Sometimes i feel that the site shouldnt have any threads. Only core should create a thread and display them for informational purposes.

BTW the user still hasnt answered questions about his contribution to IV and if he has entered his information correctly.


I know truth hurts, reality hurts too. The fact of the matter is nothing is going to happen by starting threads. Call your lawmakers, we have a small window of opportunity and dont miss it.

You have the rest of your waiting time to start threads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GotGC??
This is one of the best articulated answers I've ever seen. wfgc2006 did have a valid questions (honestly, I believe quite a few of us may have had the same doubts) and I think logiclife's comment did more than to just answer the immediate question - it showed us exactly how practical IV Core is. Yes, truth hurts but it is important to know your boundaries as well.

PS: janakp, you can do better than that.

Last edited by 485Mbe4001; 04-05-2007 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:30 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by janakp
Thanks Logiclife for the answers. GotGC yes I am already doing better than that. The same question I asked above applies to everyone else. We need people to be sincere and participate and not just come here, ask questions, stir a hornet's nest and disappear, dont do anything but simply be armchair strategists. So my questions were valid and my contributions are real.
Relax guys. Takes a chill pill.

Nice question and nice answer. Thats the way debate should be. I don't think we went anywhere wrong from what WFGC2006 wanted. We just need to keep in mind that healthy discussions should not go to arguments and fight.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:45 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by janakp
I was right . WFGC2006 just ran away without answering any question or taking part in the IV work.

I was once talking to a friend who is also a member of IV. He did not tell me his ID since he is an anonymous member. He told me that he will contribute to IV efforts when IV shows him that the bill is passed by them. Such people think that until then they have every right to question IV and its work.

Why should IV answer to each and every annonymous member. First a person has to be sincere and commited to the cause and then Iv should answer them.
I can understand your passion...

Please consider this arguement...
More people would not get convinced unless we make an effort to convince them. Part of that convinving is to give an answer to a question. If we barricade ourselves and would not answer to the uncommited people then we become stagnant. We would just be preaching to the choir...
Public organizations have to be prepared to answer anything and everthing thrown at them. IV should always have an arguement in favour of what we are doing. Otherwise how do you convince people ?? We have to give people arguement why they should commit to this cause...
Not just that we have to make sure that such arguments does not become a p**sing match...We have to make a concious effort to avoid a brawl...

Last edited by msp1976; 04-05-2007 at 01:50 PM.
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:16 PM
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Default How do you know your cherished task is the RIGHT one to begin with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 485Mbe4001
My problem with such posts is that they divert people from the actual task at hand. Instead of starting a thread on the forum the user could have simply PM'ed a core member.

Sometimes i feel that the site shouldnt have any threads. Only core should create a thread and display them for informational purposes.

BTW the user still hasnt answered questions about his contribution to IV and if he has entered his information correctly.


I know truth hurts, reality hurts too. The fact of the matter is nothing is going to happen by starting threads. Call your lawmakers, we have a small window of opportunity and dont miss it.

You have the rest of your waiting time to start threads.
I will NOT answer your question regarding my contribution and my profile as I think it's irrelevant to the current debate (which I opened up purely for the betterment of this organization).
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:22 PM
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Default

A small correction: you said: "surely for the betterment of this organization".
Actually it should be what you mean, and that is: "betterment of a subset of people like me who are backlogged;betterment of me, my own and mine alone".

At this point, most in IV can see thru euphemistic terms coming from so many politicians they follow thru media or in person.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WFGC2006
I will NOT answer your question regarding my contribution and my profile as I think it's irrelevant to the current debate (which I opened up purely for the betterment of this organization).
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:37 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFGC2006
I will NOT answer your question regarding my contribution and my profile as I think it's irrelevant to the current debate (which I opened up purely for the betterment of this organization).

Yeah right! You will NOT answer any question. You will ONLY ASK questions and expect others waste their time and resource to please you.

ICYDK (In case you didn't know) -
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spoon-feed
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:00 PM
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Default Is this the real face of IV?

I am new member (joined a week back) and am currently reading all the posts and writing 1 or 2 suggestions in the forumns.

I was planning to start contributing to IV and genunily wanted to be a part of its efforts to bring relief to the immigration community. But quite frankly, after reading through janakp's sarcastic comments to a Junior Member, I am not that confident about IV.

h1techSlave
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:08 PM
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Default

I will reply to your question -- "How do you know your cherished task is right..."

You have no idea about washington. You have no idea how the system works here. I am sure you havent met any lawmaker if you do you will realise how little they know about our problems. It is really easy to sit in front of a computer and type suggestion. Some are really good and i respect that.

Have you made an effort to understand the problems we actually face or the enormity of our problem. If you have i assure you that at you will either
a) think of returning to your home country
b) Give up (as most have done)
c) realize that IV is the only hope.

I decided to take the third option because i know the IV core and dedicated members are really working hard in the background. You realize that when someone make a 'comment' they have to stop working and try to answer your query. They are all full time employees who are spending time, money and a huge amount effort to get something done. You can help by doing something positive.

if you want a debate, sure bring it on, we can keep yapping, what is that going to get us in the end. Will it help us make you go to washington and talk to congress..i doubt.

Your intension might be good, but the activity you have started is unproductive. You can call IV, or talk to them in private and get an opinion, you will understand their motivation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WFGC2006
I will NOT answer your question regarding my contribution and my profile as I think it's irrelevant to the current debate (which I opened up purely for the betterment of this organization).
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