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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2006, 02:59 PM
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Default Mike Pence Plan for Compromise on CIR

His plan includes all the security measures of the bill that has already passed the House, and adds a provision for guest worker visas would be good for two years. A limited renewal would be available if the worker studied English and passed an English proficiency class. Federal law already has visa categories A through V. “The visas will be referred to as ‘W Visas,’ ” Pence say in his remarks. “No kidding. I think it is obvious whose support we are trying to garner here.”

Pence’s measure would create private worker placement agencies called Ellis Island Centers, licensed by the federal government to match approved guest workers with jobs that cannot be filled by Americans — a variation on an idea offered by Bush back in January 2004. “U.S. employers will engage the private agencies and request guest workers,” Pence says. “In a matter of days, the private agencies will match guest workers with jobs, perform a health screening, fingerprint them and provide the appropriate information to the FBI and Homeland Security so that a background check can be performed, and provide the guest worker with a visa granted by the State Department.”
for details:
http://mikepence.house.gov/News/Docu...cumentID=44113

http://www.time.com/time/nation/prin...196991,00.html
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Old 05-26-2006, 04:02 PM
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Default

If you look at the photo on his website, Pence is speaking at a conference at the Heritage Foundation. These are anti-immigrant groups. It's good to see that they're atleast considering a guest worker program, changing their stance from a border enforcement and deportation stand.
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Old 05-26-2006, 05:29 PM
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Default Its project

it`s the Kyle-Coryn project. It won`t be accepted by the the Dems and by some republican senator.
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:17 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by god_bless_you
His plan includes all the security measures of the bill that has already passed the House, and adds a provision for guest worker visas would be good for two years. A limited renewal would be available if the worker studied English and passed an English proficiency class. Federal law already has visa categories A through V. “The visas will be referred to as ‘W Visas,’ ” Pence say in his remarks. “No kidding. I think it is obvious whose support we are trying to garner here.”

Pence’s measure would create private worker placement agencies called Ellis Island Centers, licensed by the federal government to match approved guest workers with jobs that cannot be filled by Americans — a variation on an idea offered by Bush back in January 2004. “U.S. employers will engage the private agencies and request guest workers,” Pence says. “In a matter of days, the private agencies will match guest workers with jobs, perform a health screening, fingerprint them and provide the appropriate information to the FBI and Homeland Security so that a background check can be performed, and provide the guest worker with a visa granted by the State Department.”
for details:
http://mikepence.house.gov/News/Docu...cumentID=44113

http://www.time.com/time/nation/prin...196991,00.html
Looks more like slavery. commoditization.
I am getting scared of this skewed thinking. No tax credits and now this.
--MC
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Old 05-27-2006, 08:19 PM
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Default This is why

The visa is inevitable bound to the employement. With no path to citizenship, they will have to do whatever they can to keep the employment. This creates a permanent huge advantage for the employer to exploit. I believe this is what Dems referred as "under class".

There are at least two points about why this is bad. One is that this is neither nobel nor humane. Another is that it will drive down the wage and working conditions for American workers. So it's bad for them, and bad for American workers.

It's ironic that this path to citizenship became the mother of all trouble of the whole CIR reform. I would think for Mexican who are looking for work, their most concerns is whether their staying/working in the U.S. is legal or illegal, and whether their status can be adversely taken advantage of by their employers. Path to citizenship should really be the last thing they need to worry about, especially if you think about the 8 - 12 years wait time the current plan offers --- which pratically put them in this "under class" status for that many years.

Having that in mind, a pratical guest worker program with less restrictions and some portability probablly will be the best solution for everybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Communique
Why slavery if guest-workers would receive decent wages for the job ? Can you explain ?
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Old 05-27-2006, 09:19 PM
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Default Let's not talking about amnesty or not here

What you described with Japan is basically what I was suggesting. A guest worker with less restriction and some portability could be the best solution for everybody. I found "path to citizenship" to be ironic because this should be the last thing Mexican worker should be looking for.

Let's not talking about whether the plan is amnesty or not at here. You are talking like as if you call it as amnesty somebody would immediately choose to side with you or turn back to you. It's a complicate problem. I believe most members in the forums are not as shallow as that.

There are also a few issues worth consideration when comparing U.S. with Japan. First Japan is not really close to anybody else, that definitely helps to keep their illegal immigration down. Second we are talking about what to do with the 11m people who are already here --- believe it or not, U.S. is the lucky one who already got so many trouble in your yard, not Japan. Thus U.S. got to figure out some way to deal with it.

There is no doubt that there are a lot of dirty politics behind the whole thing. Path to citizenship instead of job portability becaming the focus probablly is the result of such political maneuver. You probablly can blame this to Dems. But if you look from the other side, path to citizenship has been traditionally a part of every immigration plan, not because it makes political sense but because it makes sense. Have your brother stayed in Japan eventually? Probablly not. If U.S. didn't have a PR/citizenship plan for foreign students, probablly most of them wouldn't bother to come. Of course you could argue that Mexican will still come if there is no way to citizenship, but ask your heart, you have them on a temporary worker visa to work for 10 years 20 years with their whole family here, they live their life every way the same as you do and probablly work much harder than you, and you still refuse to recognize them. Aren't you ashamed?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Communique
That is not slavery then. It is a matter of an individual decide if that is worthed or not. Just make sure that the wage being paid is high enough, make it a contract work. Japan brings thousands and thousands of temporary workers successfully there, on temporary visas. Yet Japan has the lowest percentage of illegal immigration there. There is no brainer. In Japan temporary workers are allowed to change jobs, as long as it is in the same or similar occupation. I know very well because my brother worked there and have at least a dozen friends and relatives who did the same. People find that very humane to work as a guest-workers there. Everyone being treated professionally and making more money than the miserable life back home should be thankful for that. If people are not happy as a guest-workers, they can always use the flight ticket to go back home. It is very simple. Dems are using this excuse of sub-class just to push amnesty as the only option, that's why.

The "path to citizenship" you refer has a name:amnesty. I don't think that is ironic because amnesty never fixed anything. You will just invite more people to come here illegally, this cycle would never end.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2006, 09:33 PM
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paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute paskal has a reputation beyond repute
Default Temporary Workers

I'm new here, just found this site while surfing the net recently.
I have taken some time to read and learn and am very impressed by the organization and effort that has been put together. I would like to congratulate those responsible, I admire you folks...everyone wants things...I have my own J1 to H1B to EB issues, you have shown what it takes to achieve these goals.

Although I believe this site and threat do not pertain to illegal immigration or temporary workers I do want to add a comment to this current discussion. I do not agree with everything Communique has ever written...but I do respect the view that a temporary program is by definition...temporary. Looking at this from the perspective of my host country (which we must do, since we all plan to be here), certain workers may be brought in for temporary work upon discretionary need. If the workers know in advance that the position is temporary AND if market based compensation and working conditions are guaranteed then there is no slavery. It is a temporary work position open to all and filled by a foreign worker under specified term limits. The worker enters it voluntarily and benifits from it. Yes it is employer dependent, but is that not the rationale of the program in the first place? And if it drives down American wages, well the identical argument can be made for H1B...we don't buy it, do we now? Both programs are need based, why treat their effect on local workers differently?

At the same time i do feel that banning any chances of citizenship under the program is discriminatory...not because it's inhumane or cruel...but because of the nature of immigrant policy here that allows everyone else an opportunity. I would support a truly TEMPORARY program with a limites discretionary chance towards citizenship for those that prove valuable and are needed. I do believe this would satisfy all...the workers i will bet will come, the employers get the work force and get to keep long term the workers that advance, exploitation is a minimal issue and those worried about excessive immigration know it's entirely need based. One way to resolve the whole exploitation issue for example is: If you get a 2 year temp visa on 3 occasions in 8 years then you must be needed..allow for self petition...maybe this could be a future way of dealing with us too...if you work on an H1B 6 years, you must be needed, self petition!
Allowing unfettered and assured citizenship to temporary workers dose not solve anything. You might as well not call it a temporary worker program. I do not buy the underclass argument either. I do however see how some of the current illegals would need to be allowed to earn citizenship due to practical considerations. The extreme views on both sides, ie no citizenship ever on one side and virtually guaranteed citizenship on the other are both problematic in my humble opinion As seems to be the case for a lot of things the middle ground is a lot better for all concerned.
These arguments extend to the fence. Why should any country not control it's borders? How is building a fence that stops the free flow of illegal immigrants a hostile act in any way? Why in the world should Mexico protest unless they are de facto partners in this activity? The fence does not stop movement. It regulates it. people like us suffer because illegal immigrants pour in everyday, if nothing else look at these issues with vested interest and think about them.
There are a lot of xenphobic arguments in support of these measures, i hope that we can all see the issue for it's merit though. An action need not be bad just because the wrong people support it. Let's think out of the box.

Anyway, to more pertinent (for us) issues....hope this bill survives, kudos again to IV, you have my undying respect and grattitude.

Last edited by paskal; 05-27-2006 at 09:37 PM.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2006, 09:35 PM
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Default Hey atlfp

Almost everyone on the site knows Communique is neither an immigrant or even pro-immigrant. Do a little research around the site. Dont get sucked into arguing about "Amnesty" or not "Amnesty" with him. Just ignore the troll, and he'll go away.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2006, 11:32 PM
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Thumbs down "Communique" ?

"Communique" is not supporting Immigration and IV goals. I think people should ignore him from the forums. Please don't argue with him....
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2006, 08:56 AM
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Default

From www.dictionary.com:

Amnesty - A general pardon granted by a government, especially for political offenses.

Paying back taxes, a fine and having to learn one of the most difficult languages in the world doesn't seem like amnesty to me!
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Old 05-28-2006, 12:15 PM
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Default Many people didn't look into the detail

If you have looked into the detail of the Senate plan, you will see how difficult it is for them to pursue this "path to citizenship". Paying back taxes, fine, learning english are just some stuff they touted on the surface. The reality is actually much hasher for them. An article on ILW a while ago had looked into the detail:
http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0508-schey.pdf

We rarely see any of those conservative Republican getting into the detail except for shouting amnesty again and again. They shout amnesty and argue law should not encourage people who broke the law when talking about dealing people who are already here; However they are also against a guest worker plan that gives a path to citizenship for people who legally come in; They are also the ones that shot the legal immigration clause down in S.1932, their execuse that time was it was attached to a budget bill. The real problem is not amnesty, it's that they hate immigrants.

So there is no point to argue about amnesty. They know better than anybody else that it is not amnesty, it's just a card they are playing. In the long run, American can close their door and stay where they are and sit there to see other nations to rise. Or they can use the situation towards their advantage to attract more hardworking and bright people to come in. They can also say let's be selective, allow some and refuse some others -- However those super conservatives can't even get there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by starving_dog
From www.dictionary.com:

Amnesty - A general pardon granted by a government, especially for political offenses.

Paying back taxes, a fine and having to learn one of the most difficult languages in the world doesn't seem like amnesty to me!

Last edited by atlfp; 05-28-2006 at 12:36 PM.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-09-2006, 05:12 PM
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Default this plan is gaining ground

http://mikepence.house.gov/News/Docu...cumentID=44833
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Old 06-09-2006, 05:40 PM
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Default

The opposition is increasingly on the top as well. Unfortunately it seems Mike Pence is trying to redefine the word 'amnesty', and obviously people are taking note of that:
http://www.vdare.com/misc/060607_henry.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by god_bless_you
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Old 06-29-2006, 09:58 AM
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Default Bush takes interest in Pence's immigration proposal

Bush takes interest in Pence's immigration proposal
By Maureen Groppe
Star Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON -- U.S. Rep. Mike Pence, whose immigration proposal has come under attack from some fellow conservatives, got a boost from President Bush on Wednesday.


Bush, who favors combining a guest-worker program with increased border security, invited Pence to the Oval Office to learn more about the Indiana Republican's version and to thank him for jumping into an issue that has divided the GOP.
"He said that he wanted me to be encouraged in what I was doing, whether he agreed with every element or not," Pence said.
He has proposed a temporary guest-worker program with a twist -- immigrants would be required to leave the country before they could enroll.
A White House spokesman said the approximately 40-minute meeting, which was at Bush's request, shows "that active conversations on immigration reform are very much under way."
"The president was in a listening mode," said spokesman Alex Conant.
Republicans are divided whether to pass an immigration bill that focuses solely on preventing immigrants from entering the country illegally and getting jobs. The House passed a bill along those lines, but the Senate's version combines border security with a guest-worker program and a path to citizenship for some of the estimated 12 million undocumented workers in the U.S.
Many Republicans think the Senate bill would reward people for breaking the law.
Pence, the leader of an influential group of House conservatives, suggested his own plan last month that he thinks gets around the amnesty issue by requiring immigrants to leave the country before they can apply for legal residency.
reporter Maureen Groppe at (202) 906-8118 or at mgroppe@gns.gannett.com
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Old 06-29-2006, 10:03 AM
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Default

6/29/2006 5:56:00 AM



Bush questions Pence on immigration plan

By John Clark
Special Projects Editor

Wednesday was the first time U.S. Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., set foot in the White House’s Oval Office. It was also the first time he was grilled by the president, the vice president and senior administration aides over his proposal to reform illegal immigration in America.




The meeting scheduled for 20 minutes ran to about 40, as Pence discussed his plan — a plan contrary to the presidents’ vision for immigration reform.

“I took it as a good sign that the administration was taking a serious look at our no-amnesty approach to immigration reform,” Pence said.

“The president repeated his appreciation for my willingness to take the lead on this issue in the House. He seemed to be quite taken with the fact that a prominent House conservative would be willing to step forward with a workable solution.”

Conservative House Republicans, including Pence, have said the president’s plan, which includes a guest worker facet, amounts to amnesty, which they oppose.

“He didn’t think that was amnesty and I said to the president of the United States, in the Oval Office, very respectively, that I thought it was,” Pence said.

“My definition of amnesty is if an illegal immigrant can get right with the law without leaving the country. I think it undermines the rule of law and the spirit of the law.”

Pence said it is usually not good form to debate the president in the Oval Office, but he said the president realized that Pence’s plan was closer to a majority opinion in Congress than the president’s own.

Pence’s plan, which is in draft form and has not been submitted as a bill for consideration, would set up private “Ellis Island” centers outside the U.S. border, where potential immigrants could undergo screening and apply for entry as guest workers. However, if they are already here illegally, they would have to leave the country before they could apply for the program.

Coupled with the immigration centers would be an easy-to-use system where employers could check the status of potential workers and a tougher stance against employers who hire illegal immigrants.

Pence said it is unrealistic to expect employers to investigate potential employees and in fact, they are legally barred from doing so.

“If somebody shows up, fills out an application to work, has a Social Security card and other identifying materials — they have a business to run,” Pence said. “I do think that clearly, the economy has spoken that we apparently need more workers in this country than we have.”

Pence told the president that his interest in the issue stems from his grandfather, Richard Michael Cawley, who arrived at Ellis Island in 1923.

Pence said he believes this Congress can still pass legislation dealing with immigration this year, whether before or after the November election. And he is negotiating with members of the Senate to see if his bill could bridge the gap between the two bodies.

“I am involved in active discussions with Republican members of the Senate about developing legislation that reflects the principles of the Pence plan,” he said.

However, the president gave no indication Wednesday if he would support Pence’s vision if such a bill passed both houses of Congress.

“For the record, his comments were that he was intrigued by my proposal and he found it very interesting,” Pence said. “No endorsements. Frankly, the president peppered me with questions for 40 minutes. I haven’t been grilled like that since the dean’s office at Northside Middle School.”

Pence’s opponent in the November election, Democrat Barry Welsh, could not be reached for comment Wednesday.
http://www.therepublic.com/main.asp?...68&TM=24866.61
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