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  #5941 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:18 PM
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AND CAN YOU GUYS BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE SEVERAL PHYSICIANS WITH 5 YEARS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL+ 3 YEARS OF RESIDENCY + 3 YEARS OF FELLOWSHIP WAITING IN THE EB2 LINE.
The whole mess with EB2/ EB3 backlongs is due to the greed of desi companies and individuals who misused the immigration system. How can we leave our old ways behind after all? I hope justice department takes a closer look at this fraud and drive away these desi firms from this country. THIS WILL BE THE REAL SOLUTION TO THE CURRENT EMPLOYMENT BASED IMMIGRATION - I THINK SEN. GRASSLEY IS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED IN HOLDING HR 3012.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT ROW
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  #5942 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:32 PM
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I wonder if Senator Grassley is holding HR3012 due to the reasons you stated. Proper enforcement of the law has nothing to do with amendments to the law. They are different. If there are a lot of H1Bs, but not enough GCs, backlogs are inevitable.

Correct me if I am wrong but number of H1Bs = 65+20 = 80k only the last few years (but there were 135k to 195k per year during years 2001-2003) without any per country cap, and which are used up every year no matter what. But Number of GCs = 140k with per country cap and not all are used every year.
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  #5943 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smuggymba View Post
Hmmm..first of all thanks for disliking the post, that's a great achievement.

Infosys has filed GC of 5 testers (We give them the scripts and they perform those steps as told from 8am to 5pm). One of those guys is a "Senior Project Manager" with 7 years of experience...all others are "Project Managers" with lesser experience.

Using designation and not responsibilities as a GC criteria is gross misuse of EB1-C. I thought that only people with "Policy making ability" qualify but here Infosys files for analysts and testers in the guise of Project Managers.

Tomorrow someone will open a testing company and have 3 employees - CEO, COO and CTO all doing testing and getting GC's in 5 months while other wait.

I dont understand why managers in US multinationals (who do not have 1 yr experience outside US in same company) are treated different from managers working for indian multinationals (but working in US and have 1 yr experience outside USA)? Forget about all fraud, but these 2 sets of people bring same value. So why treat them differently? Allow managers in US multinationals to file EB-1 even if they dont have 1 yr exp outside US to levelplay the field.
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  #5944 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velagale View Post
I think testing as a profession cant qualify to be at the same creative level as software development. Many of the software startups in silicon valley, start with a couple of developers working on idea. They code as well as write their own test cases. (I meant automated test cases). In cases of UI testing, the tools are not yet perfect, hence many UI testers are hired just to do manual testing. Even the requirements needed for Testers are not as stringent as software developers. I learnt that Google's Larry page hated the concept of hiring professional testers until he was convinced that software developers can spend their time better coding than do manual testing.

Now, this is not to degrade testing as a profession, but testing doesnt give you the creative possibilities that development can offer. It is a whole another topic, where one is capable of coding "well". Bad coders infact are more harmful than bad testers, because their impact is much worse.
Your post simply shows that you are yet to mature in industry.

First, not everything (even backend) can be automated .

Second, automation scripts are written by QA members , not developers

Third, bad testers are more harmful than bad coders. This is because , testers are the last check point before things go to production

Fourth, testing need a lot of creativity , probably more than coders. A tester is required to understand rquirement specs and/or use case scenarios and find the holes in that. A developer often miss scenarios and it is testers responsibility to catch those

Fifth, as we are moving to Agile and TDD , a QA person is becoming more and more critical to success of project. A TDD project cannot even start if you do not have a QA person in your team.

Sixth, software startups are started by Visionaries and Entrepreuners -- not coders. A heads down coder cannot start a startup.

Finally, in this forum I have seen enough bad blood --- EB2 hating EB1, EB2 hating EB3 porters, EB3 hating EB2, Developers hating Testers, Testers hating Developers, US degree holders hating Desi graduates. Is there a need for this ?
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  #5945 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:27 PM
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Default Infosys is a lame duck now

They have caught on to Infosys

Infosys staff documents under U.S. scrutiny
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  #5946 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 06:32 PM
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Default He who finds friend finds treasure

Scene 1

EB3 : Wearing Mask of Spider-man
EB2 : Wearing Mask of Super-man

EB3 : Have been waiting for 10 years and these kids are cutting line in EB2
EB2 : Whom do you call kid, I have completed my 2 years MS in US...I am better
EB3 : Oye...I am IIT Delhi pass out..your MS from MISSOURI doesn't matter
EB2 : You are IIT Delhi pass out and you are still waiting for 10 years..u r an i%$%ot
EB3 : You said u completed ur MS in 2008 and engg in 2006 then how come you are showing 8 years experience in 2012 .. you fake!!!

At this point...enough has been said and they start fighting....and while fighting their mask come off and they find they are bro's. They sit down and start drinking beer ( I would prefer scotch but then that is not very romantic ...err I mean in brotherly way )

Suddenly an guy wearing Phantom's Mask walks in and declares...well I am EB1...He barely completes his sentence when EB1 and EB2 start beating the crap out of him.

EB1 : Half dead and barely breathing...Bhaiya..this is Chintu...Mom said ur bro's will take care of u and will be happy to see u...I got a job as tester and came to meet you

Moral of the story : If it is illegal then get up and raise your voice..But we should refrain from making personal attacks on a person or profession. If it is fraud then people who are to be blamed will get punished.

I am EB3 and I am an engg + 14 years exp...now working as Proj Manager, implemented countless projects. Have nothing against EB2 or EB3 or EB1 in personal but it is sad state of affair and I too have complaints against the system...Dentists and MBBS from India after completing their 200K course or USMALE exams in US, qualify for EB2 at the end, ...what will they have to say about "developers" or any of us making a case for EB2/EB1...Again...never assume and attack...u can yourself be a target.

I am no saint...But this was getting beyond nasty. Peace
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  #5947 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 07:52 PM
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Well Said! It is very easy to get carried away by negative thoughts and propaganda. We should stay calm and focussed.
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  #5948 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krishmunn View Post
Your post simply shows that you are yet to mature in industry.

First, not everything (even backend) can be automated .

Second, automation scripts are written by QA members , not developers

Third, bad testers are more harmful than bad coders. This is because , testers are the last check point before things go to production

Fourth, testing need a lot of creativity , probably more than coders. A tester is required to understand rquirement specs and/or use case scenarios and find the holes in that. A developer often miss scenarios and it is testers responsibility to catch those

Fifth, as we are moving to Agile and TDD , a QA person is becoming more and more critical to success of project. A TDD project cannot even start if you do not have a QA person in your team.

Sixth, software startups are started by Visionaries and Entrepreuners -- not coders. A heads down coder cannot start a startup.

Finally, in this forum I have seen enough bad blood --- EB2 hating EB1, EB2 hating EB3 porters, EB3 hating EB2, Developers hating Testers, Testers hating Developers, US degree holders hating Desi graduates. Is there a need for this ?
I guess the moderator or someone deletes this post as it is getting unrelated to the thread.

Anyways, my take is :

1) Yes, not everything can be automated. But majority of the backend stuff can be. After all if your stuff is writing classes, then you can create objects and invoke methods on them, providing mock environments too ! (mock objects, dependency injection). It is all how modular your code is and good your design is.

2) Automation scripts : Some stuff in some cases yes. For eg: Load test scripts and some UI testing scripts. but if yours is heavy on UI, you would still need manual testing.

3) Bad testers are worse but not as worse as bad coders. for eg: Even after 100% QA testing, there will be bugs at customer sites ! and i have seen developers taking the blame, because the way it works is, "Hey you coded it !".

4) Testing has limited scope. Developers "create" stuff, hence the creativity.

5) yes, we do scrums and TDD. But i am surprised, do your QA folks write Junit test cases at your company ? Because Identifying use cases from project requirements/User stories/tasks, Architecting/designing of various modules, creating Class models within those modules by identifying object relationships (choosing the appropriate design patterns) , coding the classes and unit testing, static analysis and code coverage of those unit tests is all done by Developers.

6) Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, facebook, twitter and even the latest Instagram (for its stupid 1 billion dollar acquisition) were all started by hard-code coders ... Venture capitalists/Angel investors enter the picture later!. Have you heard about YCombinator ? Anyways, looks like you dont have a clue about startups in Silicon valley.

7) Thats what i am saying. Trying to equate Development and testing just because they happen to be under the umbrella of "software" is incorrect and in some ways insulting !
There is a difference between an artist and a critic.
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  #5949 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:29 PM
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For three hundred years british ruled us, not because they were strong, but we (Indians) were weak. How different are we today? Have we changed?

Shame on you all.
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485 approved on Jan 25,2012.
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  #5950 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 09:46 PM
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debating is ok man. The point is whether the debate is valid / worth while and stays civil.
Lack of debating is not a necessarily a sign of strength nor debating is a sign of weakness.

Its like democracy. You need an opposition.

For all its worth, i dont care about EB1, EB2, EB3. I know if the number of GCs is not equal to the number of H1Bs, backlogs are inevitable. My whole point is dont misrepresent the hardships/pains/challenges of certain professions (like software development).
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  #5951 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:19 PM
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[quote=velagale;3377422]I guess the moderator or someone deletes this post as it is getting unrelated to the thread.


Quote:

2) Automation scripts : Some stuff in some cases yes. For eg: Load test scripts and some UI testing scripts. but if yours is heavy on UI, you would still need manual testing.
Good test engineers write backend automation scripts too --- in many cases using even non-conventional things like shell scripts.



Quote:

3) Bad testers are worse but not as worse as bad coders. for eg: Even after 100% QA testing, there will be bugs at customer sites ! and i have seen developers taking the blame, because the way it works is, "Hey you coded it !".
If the developer is blamed than you do not have a Agile process . You are faking Agile. In agile, the team fails NOT individual. Also, if after 100% QA there are bugs (at least critical ones) , the QA engineer is not good.


Quote:

4) Testing has limited scope. Developers "create" stuff, hence the creativity.
Developer often leaves things out . That is why QA is required. So the "create" stuff is not so "creative"


Quote:

5) yes, we do scrums and TDD. But i am surprised, do your QA folks write Junit test cases at your company ? Because Identifying use cases from project requirements/User stories/tasks, Architecting/designing of various modules, creating Class models within those modules by identifying object relationships (choosing the appropriate design patterns) , coding the classes and unit testing, static analysis and code coverage of those unit tests is all done by Developers.
So what does your QA folks do ? Nothing ? If Developers have identified ALL use cases correctly, designed correctly, completed testing , why do you even need a QA. Just for UI testing ? And I guess just like smuggymba you will say that even for that Developers provide the test cases and QA just executes those ? Fox guarding hens house .

From your description it appears that even Business Analysts are also just fluff. Developer can do all work.

I now understand why you have no clue on QA.

Quote:

6) Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, facebook, twitter and even the latest Instagram (for its stupid 1 billion dollar acquisition) were all started by hard-code coders ... Venture capitalists/Angel investors enter the picture later!. Have you heard about YCombinator ? Anyways, looks like you dont have a clue about startups in Silicon valley.
Excellent point. Microsoft --- Bill Gates was a college drop out. So, coders NEED NOT be Bachelors holders and never qualify for EB2 . So than those NOT holding degree (EB3) should have first prefernce for GC.

Google -- Sergei Brin -- a refugee . So your argument should be Refugees should get GC before you .

Are you with me?

The point I am trying to make is --- they are NOT coders. They are entreprenuers .


Quote:

7) Thats what i am saying. Trying to equate Development and testing just because they happen to be under the umbrella of "software" is incorrect and in some ways insulting !
There is a difference between an artist and a critic.
Can't agree more. Trying to equate an entrepreuner like Bill Gates with 356789th Java developer is insulting ! And trying to portray a run of the mill java developer as an "artist" and "Creative" person is hillarious !

I run a small team of around 25 members and I have found Quality Engineers to be equally , if not more, valuable to developers.


Coming back to the topic -- If you know about any fraud with EB1/2/3/4/5, report it ; if you do not know and you just *think* someone is abusing it, stop whining.

Do you think the clients are fool to pay $$ per hour to get a H1 contractor for Testing ? What is Infosys' incentive to pay a person, move him to US, get him a EB1 Green Card ? Sure you are not saying that like Desi Consulting companies, Infosys is taking H1 filing cost , GC cost etc plus some additional from the Employee !





BTW, one small question --- with such great, creative Java developer like you why have you not been able to develop a bullet proof UI testing tool and put all those "testers" out of job ? What happened to your "creativity " ???
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  #5952 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:01 AM
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[quote=krishmunn;3377595]
Quote:
Originally Posted by velagale View Post
I guess the moderator or someone deletes this post as it is getting unrelated to the thread.




Good test engineers write backend automation scripts too --- in many cases using even non-conventional things like shell scripts.





If the developer is blamed than you do not have a Agile process . You are faking Agile. In agile, the team fails NOT individual. Also, if after 100% QA there are bugs (at least critical ones) , the QA engineer is not good.




Developer often leaves things out . That is why QA is required. So the "create" stuff is not so "creative"




So what does your QA folks do ? Nothing ? If Developers have identified ALL use cases correctly, designed correctly, completed testing , why do you even need a QA. Just for UI testing ? And I guess just like smuggymba you will say that even for that Developers provide the test cases and QA just executes those ? Fox guarding hens house .

From your description it appears that even Business Analysts are also just fluff. Developer can do all work.

I now understand why you have no clue on QA.



Excellent point. Microsoft --- Bill Gates was a college drop out. So, coders NEED NOT be Bachelors holders and never qualify for EB2 . So than those NOT holding degree (EB3) should have first prefernce for GC.

Google -- Sergei Brin -- a refugee . So your argument should be Refugees should get GC before you .

Are you with me?

The point I am trying to make is --- they are NOT coders. They are entreprenuers .




Can't agree more. Trying to equate an entrepreuner like Bill Gates with 356789th Java developer is insulting ! And trying to portray a run of the mill java developer as an "artist" and "Creative" person is hillarious !

I run a small team of around 25 members and I have found Quality Engineers to be equally , if not more, valuable to developers.


Coming back to the topic -- If you know about any fraud with EB1/2/3/4/5, report it ; if you do not know and you just *think* someone is abusing it, stop whining.

Do you think the clients are fool to pay $$ per hour to get a H1 contractor for Testing ? What is Infosys' incentive to pay a person, move him to US, get him a EB1 Green Card ? Sure you are not saying that like Desi Consulting companies, Infosys is taking H1 filing cost , GC cost etc plus some additional from the Employee !





BTW, one small question --- with such great, creative Java developer like you why have you not been able to develop a bullet proof UI testing tool and put all those "testers" out of job ? What happened to your "creativity " ???
Dude ! i guess you are not a Coder.
Sorry to waste your time.
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  #5953 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2012, 06:16 AM
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[quote=velagale;3377980]
Quote:
Originally Posted by krishmunn View Post

Dude ! i guess you are not a Coder.
Sorry to waste your time.
I have spent years in this industry -- gone through all --- developer , System Analyst and now Project Manager. That's why I said in beginning - you are yet to mature in the Industry.
Happy coding . And BTW, do try to come up with a perfect UI testing tool (use your "creativity") . That will help the industry.
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  #5954 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2012, 06:56 AM
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[quote=krishmunn;3378231]
Quote:
Originally Posted by velagale View Post

I have spent years in this industry -- gone through all --- developer , System Analyst and now Project Manager. That's why I said in beginning - you are yet to mature in the Industry.
Happy coding . And BTW, do try to come up with a perfect UI testing tool (use your "creativity") . That will help the industry.
Does it matter if someone is developer, System Analyst or a Project Manager? Why to fight here for no reason? Guys this thread is to share information and knowledge about EB2-EB3.
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  #5955 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:03 AM
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[quote=krishmunn;3378231]
Quote:
Originally Posted by velagale View Post

I have spent years in this industry -- gone through all --- developer , System Analyst and now Project Manager. That's why I said in beginning - you are yet to mature in the Industry.
Happy coding . And BTW, do try to come up with a perfect UI testing tool (use your "creativity") . That will help the industry.
Admin, Please delete these un-related post from this great manager.
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